89 replies to this topic

[Antony Weiner]

GalaxyBluestar, on 24 January 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

what will people do when they face warhawks/masakari's, nova/blackhawks, or annihilators?

run warhawks/masakari's, nova/blackhawks, or annihilators

[Deamhan]

Mathmatics, on 24 January 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Do you really think an ac/20 uses 20 rounds per shot? If that was not a typo: It uses 1 round per shot @20dmg. As for putting ammo in the legs. This has always been a thing but it was not as big of a deal in TT (post 3050) because DHS could go in the legs. Since DHS take 3 crits here, well what else are we supposed to put there? Besides like many people have said its a nice meta balance. Give the lights somthing fun to shoot at for pretty ammo explotions.

Like I said, I don't use ballistics. I briefly used the AC5 on a K2 which I had only long enough to unlock master. Though I see now.

Still, with missiles, it does represent the number of missiles fired.

Upon closer inspection, It looks as though the LRMs do 1.8 while the SRMs (including streak) do 2.5. Reducing the SRMs to 1.8 like the LRMs actually would not make a huge change but might be just what is needed. Especially if we are to see things like SSRM 4 or 6.

If they make these follow the same as the SRMs, then the SSRM 6 will be 4.5 tons and take up just 2 crit slots yet will be able to dish out 15 dmg. Can you imagine four of those? Lock shoot, 60 dmg with a strong possibility to hit their CT.

Edited by Deamhan, 24 January 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[NKAc Street]

Crimson Angel, on 24 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Dear PGI,

Please help put a stop to SRM spamming.

Many thanks, keep up the good work,


Crimson

It helps if you do not walk right towards them.

[SPencil]

Teamwork is OP

[RawheadRex]

Never been taken out by an SRM so I don't care

[Brilig]

I have to say that with some of the possible changes coming to the big laser weapons we might start seeing a lot more people engaging at range. If staying at range becomes a more viable play style than it is now we might see a reduction in brawling, and therefor SRM boating.

Fewer people will take a short range specific build if they run a higher chance of being torn up before they can get close enough to use it.

Edit: Spelling.

Edited by Brilig, 24 January 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[Shumabot]

SRMs have just about 3 times the dps per ton of an AC20, theyre harder to miss with and they have just about the same effective range. For the same weight as an ac20+1 ammo you can have four SRM 6's and three tons of ammo. There is a specific reason the most offensively capable builds in the game boat SRM's, it's because it's the most powerful gun in the game. It's heat is negligible, it's weight is negligible, it's damage is huge, and it occupies a weapon slot that comes in sets of threes, fours, or sixes on a lot of mechs. There is simply no reason in this game not to boat SRMs. There are a lot of things in MWO that are imbalanced, streaks only work to make lights useless, SRM's are basically one hit kill shotguns, gauss rifles negate the use of every other long range direct fire weapon, etc. Just because there are a lot of problems doesn't mean they aren't real. It just means that there are a lot of problems, and this is a somewhat big one and will be until damage numbers in this game start to reflect actual opportunity costs and skill.

Quote

Never been taken out by an SRM so I don't care

That is a lie. You are lying.

Edited by Shumabot, 24 January 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Green Mamba]

LOL ...Streak users whining because finally something else can take them out as quickly as they can..At least you have to Aim continually with SRMS and skill is involved

[Shumabot]

Green Mamba, on 24 January 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

LOL ...Streak users whining because finally something else can take them out as quickly as they can..At least you have to Aim continually with SRMS and skill is involved

A 6 srm6 catapault can one shot kill a light and it's shot spread covers half of your screen, against an assault it can just walk to point blank and hit one button to core an awesome.

Skill. Yeah. That.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Shumabot, on 24 January 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

A 6 srm6 catapault can one shot kill a light and it's shot spread covers half of your screen, against an assault it can just walk to point blank and hit one button to core an awesome.

Skill. Yeah. That.

Green Mamba, on 24 January 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

LOL ...Streak users whining because finally something else can take them out as quickly as they can..At least you have to Aim continually with SRMS and skill is involved

must admit there's no skill in point blank range face hugging and boated srms drive a pilot to do just that.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 24 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

If you worry about hard points. My favorite approach would be to ensure that all models adjust their looks based on the weapons equipped. Some already do this to a limited degree.

[Kousagi]

Shumabot, on 24 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

SRMs have just about 3 times the dps per ton of an AC20, theyre harder to miss with and they have just about the same effective range. For the same weight as an ac20+1 ammo you can have four SRM 6's and three tons of ammo. There is a specific reason the most offensively capable builds in the game boat SRM's, it's because it's the most powerful gun in the game. It's heat is negligible, it's weight is negligible, it's damage is huge, and it occupies a weapon slot that comes in sets of threes, fours, or sixes on a lot of mechs. There is simply no reason in this game not to boat SRMs. There are a lot of things in MWO that are imbalanced, streaks only work to make lights useless, SRM's are basically one hit kill shotguns, gauss rifles negate the use of every other long range direct fire weapon, etc. Just because there are a lot of problems doesn't mean they aren't real. It just means that there are a lot of problems, and this is a somewhat big one and will be until damage numbers in this game start to reflect actual opportunity costs and skill.



That is a lie. You are lying.

AC20's effective range is 270m, it can still reach out pretty far and still do good damage... I think 570m is still 15 damage so, don't care to do the math, unless someone wants to. SRM's MAX range is 270, about 100 meters effective if you want to hit with most of the missiles but it still shot guns pretty bad even at that range, you have to get about 40-60m for them to group well, and even then it spreads over many sections.

Duel AC20's is hands down the scariest mech setup to be with in 270m's of. As if they can get a bead on your cockpit you die in 1 shot no matter what mech you are. So you better never ever overheat in front of a AC20 cat.

[OneEyed Jack]

Antony Weiner, on 24 January 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

How do you counter a 2 x ER PPC and 4 x SRM 6 Stalker boat? What is a counter to it?

Rhetorical questions. There are no counters to this superior mech; you can only focus your fires on it.

Um... don't stand in front of it? Honestly, how hard is it to avoid fire from the mech with the worst torso twist in the game, zero lateral arm movement and that turns at roughly the same rate as an oil tanker?

I wasn't aware "don't go toe-to-toe with an assault" was a concept people were unfamiliar with.

[SpiralRazor]

Crimson Angel, on 24 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Dear PGI,

Please help put a stop to SRM spamming.

Many thanks, keep up the good work,


Crimson

Dear PGI, please tell me how to stop sucking so bad?

Many thanks, I need an aimbot to win.

Crimson


There, I fixed that for you. You are most welcome sir!

[Shumabot]

Kousagi, on 24 January 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

AC20's effective range is 270m, it can still reach out pretty far and still do good damage... I think 570m is still 15 damage so, don't care to do the math, unless someone wants to. SRM's MAX range is 270, about 100 meters effective if you want to hit with most of the missiles but it still shot guns pretty bad even at that range, you have to get about 40-60m for them to group well, and even then it spreads over many sections.

Duel AC20's is hands down the scariest mech setup to be with in 270m's of. As if they can get a bead on your cockpit you die in 1 shot no matter what mech you are. So you better never ever overheat in front of a AC20 cat.

2 AC20s on the cat will do 40 damage, you're right a shot in the cockpit will kill you. Six SRM6's is 90 damage. Prepare to get cored in one shot.

Now, I ask you. Which is easier to hit? The cockpit or the giant center mass of the mech? Sure, the AC20 has about 200 meters longer maxmimum range, meaning it can dance a bit better, but it does A THIRD THE DAMAGE of equivalent tonnage in SRMs. If a catapault could have 30 tons in SRMs (equal to those AC20s) it would be doing 150 damage, and therein lies the problem. The SRM is the most weight efficient weapon in the game to a ludicrous degree.

As for SRM grouping, they actually regroup after arcing out. Their flight path is strange and they have two sweet spot ranged for hitting. They also hit multiple sections, and thus one srm can do more than it's 5 damage, meaning the damage cap on a single srm6 salvo is likely above that of an ac20 shot.

SpiralRazor, on 24 January 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

Dear PGI, please tell me how to stop sucking so bad?

Many thanks, I need an aimbot to win.

Crimson


There, I fixed that for you. You are most welcome sir!

Dear PGI, please stop having forums. The people that post in them are incapable of communicating with eachother without falling down.

OneEyed Jack, on 24 January 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

Um... don't stand in front of it? Honestly, how hard is it to avoid fire from the mech with the worst torso twist in the game, zero lateral arm movement and that turns at roughly the same rate as an oil tanker?

I wasn't aware "don't go toe-to-toe with an assault" was a concept people were unfamiliar with.

This forum always wants to say "get good" to imbalanced things, as if thats an answer at all. It's not.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 January 2013 - 12:18 AM.

[Nahuris]

Deamhan, on 24 January 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Like I said, I don't use ballistics. I briefly used the AC5 on a K2 which I had only long enough to unlock master. Though I see now.

Still, with missiles, it does represent the number of missiles fired.

Upon closer inspection, It looks as though the LRMs do 1.8 while the SRMs (including streak) do 2.5. Reducing the SRMs to 1.8 like the LRMs actually would not make a huge change but might be just what is needed. Especially if we are to see things like SSRM 4 or 6.

If they make these follow the same as the SRMs, then the SSRM 6 will be 4.5 tons and take up just 2 crit slots yet will be able to dish out 15 dmg. Can you imagine four of those? Lock shoot, 60 dmg with a strong possibility to hit their CT.

If you have played tabletop, it's apparent that SRM's are already sort of nerfed....
However, the whole armor / laser / lrm / srm balance has already been skewed.

The game doubled the armor.
TT LRM's did 1 point of damage, and SRM's did 2 --- per missile for both --- so the LRM in this game is almost as powerful as it would be on TT at 1.8. The SRM would need to be 4.0 points of damage per missile to match TT ability.
However, on TT, anti-missile systems can target SRM's to include SRM streaks..... and like ECM, the powers that be have changed the way things work......

As for limiting hard points (as has been pointed out... you would have problems with mechs having tonnage they can't do anything with...... IF you drop a 14 ton AC/20 for a longer range 9 ton AC/5 Ultra.... what do you do with the extra tonnage?
In order to use the tonnage, it would force stock designs... so that's not necessarily a good method.
I would recommend fixing AMS.... so that it can take down SRM's like it's supposed to.
Two, I'd bump the lasers up a bit .... currently they are severely nerfed with the standard TT damage against double armor values....
On the Tabletop, Lasers trump SRM's because they are concentrated damage..... SRM's scatter like crazy.
Force a random location roll for each SRM..... and make the lasers less prone to slashing around (maybe they do damage in one pulse to the first location hit.... the rest of the rake is just cosmetic...... but as things stand, the damage for SRM's is already nerfed.

On another note, I have already been criticized for taking a Commando with a medium laser, an SRM6, and an SRM4 out on the field..... which, oddly enough, is the CANON version.... I get accused of "srm spam" all the time..... and I have no ammo in my legs..... I can't wait until the Vulture with the 6 SRM6's AND PULSE LASERS hits the field.....

Clan mechs get half weight missile launchers..... and Clan LRM's have NO MINIMUM range.
That's going to be a real mess.....

Nahuris

[Shumabot]

The tabletop is an awful proxy for this kind of game and it itself isn't even close to balanced. This community needs to stop using it as a basis for suggestions in this game. It's a terrible model, mechwarrior tactics isn't even using the TT games numbers and it's a replica of it.

Seriously, stop. The suggestions are never workable.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 January 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[Velba]

Can we just get it over with, and paint all our mechs pink, take off all the weapons, and prance around, I'm sure those MLP weirdos would like that.








EDIT: wait that's a terrible idea

Edited by Velba, 25 January 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[Shumabot]

Velba, on 25 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

Can we just get it over with, and paint all our mechs pink, take off all the weapons, and prance around, I'm sure those MLP weirdos would like that.








EDIT: wait that's a terrible idea

Worst forum community on earth.

[Lorcan Lladd]

While it is true that SRM boats as well as other brawler/skirmisher 'Mech configurations possess tremendous Alpha Strike damage and raw killing power, they are also restricted to short and medium ranges of operation - at their most lethal within the confines of cities and tunnels, and completely harmless in the open space of fields and lakes, they depend upon terrain obstructions to successfully close up on enemy units.

It is also the instinct of most other pilots to stick behind cover themselves, both to avoid detection and enemy weapon fire; unfortunately, this leaves them very little room to manuever if they're caught by a SRM boat - this compounds the lethality and efficiency of that 'Mech.

If your 'Mech is not a SRM boat or another brawler build itself, the standard proceedure upon enemy contact is always to put as much distance between you and the enemy unit as it is possible, leaving cover if need be - this can by itself significantly increase your chances of surviving the encounter, especially if the enemy unit is equipped with SRMs.
But that's a reactive tactic; by nature, it is weak and ineffective.

Do not depend on it.
The most powerful maneuvers used against SRM boats - the ones you should strive to master - are to engage them from long ranges and in open ground.

This can be achieved in several ways, with or without the support of your team mates.
It is possible to lure the SRM units out of cover with weapons fire from well-positioned platforms, but a more efficient tactic would be to position yourself so that a great open area stands between you and the SRM units - this forces them to seek a longer way around or stay put, effectively immobilized and unable to attack.
Alternatively, they may choose to expose themselves to your weapons' fire; tragic.

Besides these tactics, there are many strategies to take into consideration; it is perfectly possible to utilize a 'Mech with a higher DPS and maximum potential damage than the SRM boat to overcome their instant damage capabilities over the course of a match, for example, if you're unfamiliar with the terrain.

The tools of destruction possess no user's manual.