68 replies to this topic

[DarkBazerker]

If everyone used ecm, everyone would be countering ecms which means it would be like no one having ecm. Oh the irony.

[Mercules]

Eh... ECM doesn't bend lasers, stop SRMs, deflect bullets, or even really stop LRMs if someone has TAG. Sounds like a good way to get "everyone" to waste 1.5 tons and two slots since "everyone" knows you "have" to have it.

[Dudeman3k]

Mercules, on 25 January 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Eh... ECM doesn't bend lasers, stop SRMs, deflect bullets, or even really stop LRMs if someone has TAG. Sounds like a good way to get "everyone" to waste 1.5 tons and two slots since "everyone" knows you "have" to have it.

lol sounds like you've never tried keeping TAG on a 150 KPH light when hes straffing your team.... but WAIT!!,, you got one lock!! finally, but he notices your an LRM user so he shifts in a little-closer and BAM, your LRM's are now giant paper weights...... too bad so sad. lol

lol, AMS doesnt stop any of the mentioned above either.... but what ECM DOES offer that AMS doesn't is a cloak, no exploding ammo, and the ability to still use Lockon weapon systems!!... so, yeah, replaceing all my AMS to ECM.

[Mercules]

Dudeman3k, on 25 January 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

lol sounds like you've never tried keeping TAG on a 150 KPH light when hes straffing your team.... but WAIT!!,, you got one lock!! finally, but he notices your an LRM user so he shifts in a little-closer and BAM, your LRM's are now giant paper weights...... too bad so sad. lol

lol, AMS doesnt stop any of the mentioned above either.... but what ECM DOES offer that AMS doesn't is a cloak, no exploding ammo, and the ability to still use Lockon weapon systems!!... so, yeah, replaceing all my AMS to ECM.

Sounds like you overspecialize your mech if you can't kill a light with your non-LRM weapons... oh, you only have LRMs or Streaks? Yeah... I don't think ECM was the issue in that case. Before ECMs ever came out the counter to a mech very heavily invested in LRMs was a light mech. ECM just made it it easier. No mech that is LRM heavy should ever be alone where a Light can easily neutralize it.

[Kommisar]

I think a lot of people need to divorce the poll question in this thread from an opinion on ECM. The two are mutually exclusive.

As I stated, I would equip my mechs with ECM if available and would want all the mechs on my team to do the same. It's benefits far out way the drawbacks; which are simply 1.5 tons and 2 slots.

However, I (and several others) never stated that it was OP. Or just fine. Or that we want all mechs to have access to it. I personally think that it would be a horrible idea for all mechs to have access to it. And I say that as a guy that has 6 mechs in his bays and not a one is ECM capable.

I think the take away from this is that IF it was an option, it would be taken by nearly everyone. It's not a "God" box or anything like that... doesn't bend lasers or stop shells; but for the price in tonnage and crits, it's a no-brainer. There is not an equivalent piece or equipment in the game other than having an engine. You have to have an engine. And a Gyro; but that is not even an option. And the stuff up in the cockpit. And the actuators; sure. So, you have to be a mech and be mobile. After that; ECM.

[Dudeman3k]

Mercules, on 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Sounds like you overspecialize your mech if you can't kill a light with your non-LRM weapons... oh, you only have LRMs or Streaks? Yeah... I don't think ECM was the issue in that case. Before ECMs ever came out the counter to a mech very heavily invested in LRMs was a light mech. ECM just made it it easier. No mech that is LRM heavy should ever be alone where a Light can easily neutralize it.

what??? hahahaha I play LRMs??? wasn't aware I did, maybe your confusing me with someone else?? hahahahaha
sounds like YOU assume too much... it'd be healthy for you to stop doing that, makes you look like a douche. hahaha

The issue is how ECM makes AMS and BAP useless. So if you had to chose a 1.5 ton, 2 critt slot item, you'd be ******** to not take ECM. It gives your entire team cloak of invisibility!... they should make AMS do the same IMO, give everyone a cloak of invisibility that is.

[Ralziel]

I have less than no interest in having ECM, or equipping ECM. If they made it so every mech can have ECM, they might as well just remove it, and make it so you can't lock onto anything, unless you use a tag or narc. Hell, people would probably prefer the game like that anyway. That way it would be even, it would stop streaks being such a topic to cry over and then there'd be far less topics for people to troll and whine over it for

Edited by Ralziel, 25 January 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Hotthedd]

You mean I could remove AMS + AMS ammo, freeing up 1.5 tons and 2 critical spaces on my current builds and replace them with ECM?

And there are those who WOULDN'T do that?

[Mercules]

Dudeman3k, on 25 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

what??? hahahaha I play LRMs??? wasn't aware I did, maybe your confusing me with someone else?? hahahahaha
sounds like YOU assume too much... it'd be healthy for you to stop doing that, makes you look like a douche. hahaha

The issue is how ECM makes AMS and BAP useless. So if you had to chose a 1.5 ton, 2 critt slot item, you'd be ******** to not take ECM. It gives your entire team cloak of invisibility!... they should make AMS do the same IMO, give everyone a cloak of invisibility that is.

If you don't use LRMs then you really can't speak as to how easy or hard it is to use them, can you. Whom is making the assumptions with a lack of knowledge? It is not myself.

Hotthedd, on 25 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

You mean I could remove AMS + AMS ammo, freeing up 1.5 tons and 2 critical spaces on my current builds and replace them with ECM?

And there are those who WOULDN'T do that?

That would imply we actually have AMS on our mechs to remove.

[Hotthedd]

Mercules, on 25 January 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

If you don't use LRMs then you really can't speak as to how easy or hard it is to use them, can you. Whom is making the assumptions with a lack of knowledge? It is not myself.



That would imply we actually have AMS on our mechs to remove.

Yes, I made that assumption. If you do not have ECM, and you are not super fast, AMS is pretty important (Though not as bad as during the LRM boat online days)

[So who took Pilot Name as a name]

Voted ''never'' because I assumed most would have it all the time, hence, making it useless for me to add that piece of equipment and I could use that tonnage to increase my firepower instead.

O now let's check the results so far:

All the time (128 votes [78.53%] - View)
More than half the time (10 votes [6.13%] - View)
Occasionally (7 votes [4.29%] - View)
Never (12 votes [7.36%] - View)
Lemoncurry (6 votes [3.68%] - View)

Looks like I'd still benefit from its advantages just fine! Just as planned.

[Mercules]

Hotthedd, on 25 January 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Yes, I made that assumption. If you do not have ECM, and you are not super fast, AMS is pretty important (Though not as bad as during the LRM boat online days)

I've got a 'phract with AMS... but everything else I pilot is 90+ KPH. I don't need AMS and don't really need ECM. Even so I have a few ECM mechs, all lights, mostly because I want to TAG counter ECM for my team.

I agree ECM and LRMs/SSRMs need changes to be brought back in line with how they should function.... but ECM is not the necessity so many try to make it out as. AMS was not needed on every mech and ECM isn't either.

[Valcoer]

the cloaking effect alone is worth the 1.5 tons and two slots neccessary to equip ecm. even if ecm did nothing else for me all mechs that can carry it will carry it in my arsenal. the only time I use non ecm mechs is when I am trying to master an ecm mech and I only use those variants in pugs. Ive already sold all my non ecm chassis' due to my limit on mech bays I can not afford to have any mech in my arsenal that is not ecm capable. before ecm came out I was a heavy specialist. meaning I was on my way to mastering all heavy chassis. now I am an ecm specialist and only have ecm chassis.

[capn233]

Why wouldn't you?

Unless you could go completely passive sensor (antenna to receive), equip anti-radiation missiles, or switch your sSRM or LRM to "Home on Jam" everyone might as well take it.

[Strig]

It is simply too good as it is.

Essentially does the job of 3 pieces of Electronic Warfare gear (ECM, null signature and stealth armor) with none of the downsides.

All for 2 crits and 1.5 tons ...

It is WAY TOO GOOD.
.

[Odins Fist]

I decided to buy back mt old Atlas DC, and mount ECM about 3 days ago.. I wanted to see of all the "CRYING" over ECM was really that big of an issue.. "IT WASN'T", there was no obvious advantage, score did not reflect an overwhelming effect, as a matter of fact, I was targeted more because of having ECM, and would always see someone with tag running, so I wasn't impressed with anything other than the anti Streak lock effect, and that didn't matter either, tag, and the fact that every Mech in the match was trying to fire on me says that ECM isn't the boogie-man that a lot of people were crying about..
.
This leads me to believe that any ECM Mech is more of a perceived threat, and targeted more than "NON" ECM Mechs..
.
You know how many times I have heard in TS "There's their ECM Raven, or Atlas... KIll IT..!!!"
Oh no there's a boogie-man under the bed... LOL, grow up.

[Voidsinger]

I think even in tabletop Battletech ECM had the utility to be worth it.

If you look at the TROs for 3075 and 3085, where Guardian is vastly less powerful than in MWO (and BAP more useful), you'll notice something.

MECHS STOPPED USING AMS.

Realising that AMS is far more limited, nearly every mech had some sort of electronics:

Guardian - Less powerful in BT, but still heavily used.
Beagle - More potent and useful in BT than MWO
C3 (usually C3i) - The functions of which for the most part have been given to all mechs in MWO
Targeting Computers - Targeting is Mouse & Crosshairs in MWO

There is something else to note. Due to limits on the placement of DHS on mechs, hardpoint limits, and the greater amounts of heat generated by weapons in MWO, if you are looking at a more heat neutral build, you may end up with a few tons to spare. Putting GECM in is a natural good use of spare tonnage in a useful way.

For those that care, I do use BAP on quite a few mechs. While it is effectively just a sensor extender weighing 1.5tons and occupying 2 critical slots, it can free up 2 module slots. Some mechs like the Stalker have a single module slot, so this is handy.

I do intend to use the next Ask the Devs as a chance to ask the Devs about the future of BAP, since GECM is under review, and the widespread cessation and underutilisation of BAP shows it has issues.

Back to the point. Guardian ECM as deployed in MWO is a gamechanger, where the number of units in a team with ECM can change the outcome. Limiting the unit to certain mechs (usually the most potent) has simply driven up the usage figures on those mechs. The Raven-3L is never used in its original role, becoming a 3 laser/2 Streak/295XL/GECM strike boat other lights cannot escape without ECM. Streak and ECM combined is shutting down the light game to a large extent, because lights lack the durability for multiple Streak hits.

Moving to GECM on all mechs isn't just a sign that ECM is overwhelming in the game. It is part of a trend that also took place in the core BT universe.

[Rokuzachi]

Just some random thoughts;

1 ECM can potentially affect an entire team, for the same space/weight as a BAP.

The BAP only directly benefits the person using it.

As a compromise, why don't BAP-equipped mechs have some sort of partial sensor penetration against ECM? Like instead of 200m, they can target at 400m, and the lockon speed penalty is lessened or some such. Seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise, especially given that the ECM is basically an AE, and the BAP is just for one person. ECM still remains a powerful tool, but if people want to be less crippled by it, they can clear up weight/space on their loadout for a BAP.

Edit: Just to note, I'm going off of info I found that stated that the sensor range boost from BAP does not alter the range of the ECM bubble for you.

Edited by Rokuzachi, 25 January 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Tennex]

DarkBazerker, on 25 January 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

If everyone used ecm, everyone would be countering ecms which means it would be like no one having ecm. Oh the irony.

yeah sad part is, evryone would still need to have it. because if one team had fewer ECM then the other team has advantage. lol

[Snoopy]

Strig, on 25 January 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

It is simply too good as it is.

Essentially does the job of 3 pieces of Electronic Warfare gear (ECM, null signature and stealth armor) with none of the downsides.

All for 2 crits and 1.5 tons ...

It is WAY TOO GOOD.
.

Even better. Neither Stealth Armor or Null Signature System did provide a AOE stealth cloak in CBT.

I still try to imagine how the "real" stealth effect from Stealth Armor or Null Signature System would look like in MWO.

ECM was only a minor peace of equipment in CBT compared to the huge internal-space need and heat build-up of Stealth Armor or Null Signature System.

IMO if both systems are not better than the current AOE-ECM system there is no need to use them at all ... or ECM must be changed.