16 replies to this topic

[Khanahar]

*There is a TLDR, but please don't criticize the plan without reading the full description. Sorry it's long.*

Clan implementation is one of the hottest topics in debate here, and PGI is actively working on it. I have given it a great deal of thought and feel I have developed a conceptual implementation that leaves all major parties satisfied. I am very open to comments or criticisms!

After implementation patch, you will be greeted with a new screen following login. It will give you a brief description of each of the invading clans underneath their respective logos, and will prompt you to choose one, but will tell you that you will retain your Inner Sphere faction as well. A “choose none” option will also exist.

On subsequent logins, you will be presented with a screen that tells you to choose between Inner Sphere and Clan mode, ideally a pretty splash screen with the logos and your most recent 'mech for each displayed prominently. Below the Clan mode button, it will tell you how many Clan mode games you have available.

That's right: the crux of this plan is to implement Clan mode as easily available, but in limited quantity. Clan mode games could then be awarded in a variety of ways. The main way would be spending GXP from your Inner Sphere mode. Obviously, PGI would also be able to sell Clan games, either in packages or as monthly subscriptions. Most intriguingly, you could also join Clan games by spending Clan “honor points.”

Honor points will function as the Clan's overall currency. (MC will obviously also function in Clan mode). I imagine it as the Clan equivalent of both GXP and C-Bills, though this is not critical to the implementation. The advantage of a single currency would be that Clan players would be forced to choose between spending their Honor on getting into batchalls (playing games) or requisitioning new 'mechs and equipment.

Honor points would be awarded on a dual basis: battlefield performance and adherence to Zellbringen rules. To the new guys, Zell rules are the Clan's honor system that says things like “no ganging up on a target.” You could earn Honor without ever following Zell, but at about half the rate you would if you did. And, for the FTP players who want to play exclusively Clan, I think it should be just barely possible to play only Clan games if you always follow Zell and are consistently in the top 2 or so on the scoreboard. Role players could think of their non-Clan time (registered ideally as Lone Wolves) as time as “Bondsmen” or “Second Line” or whatever in punishment for their good-not-great performance.

With this implementation, battles would be pure-tech 5v8 with appropriate tonnage balancing. Clan 'mechs remain scary, their pilots will be on average (slightly) better, but they are beatable and accessible. You can pay for convenience, but everything is available to a FTP player. Oh, and did you notice how hard it's gonna be to get that Mad Cat without shelling out money or being a total beast in Clan games? Good for BT purists, good for both recreational and serious players, good for PGI (lots of income potential, including what I imagine will be popular subscriptions)

TLDR;

Clan games for all
Every player has an IS and Clan Faction
Clan games limited in quantity, paid for in:
GXP: every ~10 IS games for 1 Clan game
MC Game Pack:- ~$5 for 20 Clan games
MC Subscriptions ~$15/month of unlimited games
Clan Honor ~1 excellent score (following Zell) for 1 Clan game
Some (~50%), not all Honor awarded for following Zell
(optional unless going hardcore Clan)
Puretech battles, roughly 5v8 with tonnage/class restrictions

[Theobald Hauser]

Dangerously close to a pay to win theory...

[Khanahar]

Amarius, on 25 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Dangerously close to a pay to win theory...

Clan/IS balancing would be very important for this reason. If Clans were winning 70% of their games, this would be P2W. However, as long as Clans are tonnage/5v8 balanced, their win rate would be 50%.

Money is only helping you toward options you would have ordinarily, just getting them faster. Which has been PGI's stance for a while now.

[GLW]

Sounds like a balanced way to handle Clan mechs. Works for me.

[Theobald Hauser]

Pay for constant access to the better mechs ? Even in 5v8, they are individually far better mechs. You don't play five of them, only one.

There's no reason to fear clanmech imbalancing. In game terms (TT-translating), Clan mechs have any-weapon hardpoints but can't change engines or armor and have really sh*tty paper dolls by MWO standards (gigantic cockpits, crazilly big launchers, ...).
If IS mechs have access to Clan tech equipments and upgrades (even the high prices are already listed on www.sarna.net), there's no balance issues at all.

[Khanahar]

Amarius, on 25 January 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Pay for constant access to the better mechs ? Even in 5v8, they are individually far better mechs. You don't play five of them, only one.

There's no reason to fear clanmech imbalancing. In game terms (TT-translating), Clan mechs have any-weapon hardpoints but can't change engines or armor and have really sh*tty paper dolls by MWO standards (gigantic cockpits, crazilly big launchers, ...).
If IS mechs have access to Clan tech equipments and upgrades (even the high prices are already listed on www.sarna.net), there's no balance issues at all.

Free for all mixed-tech dilutes the BT feel and imbalances the game.

And don't forget, even if IS 'mechs could mount Clan weapons without trouble, they would remain underpowered. Inferior hardpoints, XL engines that die from losing just one side torso, worse Endo-steel, worse (practically useless) Ferro-Fib, all make IS 'mechs generally worse.

Never mind that full mixed-tech would obselete every IS weapon overnight, and mean that the gap between equipment available for new players and experienced players would be vastly greater.

For balance and for a real MechWarrior feel, Clan and IS need to be separate, at least for a time.

[Theobald Hauser]

Equipments and upgrades.
Not just weapons.

The need to separate things is a matter of personal taste.

[Wolf Clearwater]

Or perhaps implement clan mechs so that piloting one gains no xp, and has none of the efficiencies to unlock. Ever. Then you have a hard choice between what tech to use.

[Drebin Cormack]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the research I did leads me to the assumption that this is taking place during the time of mechwarrior 2 mercs. Implementing clan tech will be tricky, obviously.

What I'd like to see is a type of salvage system implemented. It would give everyone access to everything, eventually. Even if they didn't want to join a clan. It would be expensive to salvage equipment as well. This would be easier when there is pve content in the game. Run a few missions, get the salvage, load up your mech. Chassis themselves could be different. Joining a clan would give you access to that clan's specialty quicker. I get this is the "free tech" viewpoint but honestly, realistically, that's the way it would go. After extensive testing of course. "reverse" engineering takes practically no time at all, that is if you have the manufacturing processes necessary to produce said pieces. Especially as the game has a merc feel to it already. Implement an overt bpv value into the system if need be. Or go the rep grinding way and hire yourself out to a clan to get your standing up with that "faction" to be able to purchase equipment from them. Like probably most people here, I'm a fan of the computer games, not the rpg's, I could care less as to whether they adhere to battletech lore. Ferro armor and double heatsinks my ... .

What I want is to be able to pilot a Direwolf or Timberwolf and not be penalized for it. And equip my cataphract with clan tech eventually. The whole being unbalanced to new players is a stupid argument, in my opinion. Of course it's going to be unbalanced to new players, they're NEW! I'm not asking for anything crazy like omnitech or anything.

[Hanith]

Instead of separating one game into two nearly identicle games, why not just "re-implement" repair costs.

The repiar/rearm costs have been abolished and replaced with a flat reduction of rewards at the end of a match; the same technique can be used for clan items. Apply a modifier to rewards at the end of a match (whether flat or scaling) per piece of clan-tech used. Say you win a match w/ only IS tech and get 100k CB and 750 exp. Had you won with a single clan-tech weapon, it would have been 95k CB and 715 exp. Had you had 2 clan weapons and a couple clan heat sinks, you would instead get 80k CB and 600exp. Had you nothing but clan tech, you would make a measly 65k CB and 400exp.

Effectively, the more clan tech you use, the less your end-match reward is. In this way, your progress will slow down per match but you increase your chances of winning (potentially). This will also allow everyone to still participate in the same match using various degrees of clan items.

In addition to this, applying a heafty pricetag to clan-tech items would also help to restrict their use without prohibiting it. While there will be WAAC players / teams demanding only clan-tech be used, they will be greatly hampering their own progress.

Once "Factions" gets realized, maybe the penalty for using clan tech (when in a clan) can be lessened / removed. This would then help maintain the fluff aspect of things (Clans are better suited for repairing clan tech after all).

It can be argued that once a player reaches "end-game" they will only use clan tech. I can think of no way around this save concepts that lean toward pay-to-win, segregation or a full reimplementation of the repair/rearm system making bad losses result in a loss of funds.

[Drebin Cormack]

I'll agree with that. IS tech would carry no penalty while clan tech would, depending on the quantity of tech used. I personally run an IM almost all the time anymore, even though there are better options available, just because of the c-bill bonus. Between that and the premium time it's not uncommon to get 200k+ c-bills for every win. (especially if you try to drag your lasers over every mech you see) Also clan tech would come with a repair bill. Yep, sounds good to me.

[Idgit Galoot]

I like the idea of penalizing EXP and CB's for using clan tech on a exponential scale.

[Khanahar]

Hanith, on 28 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Instead of separating one game into two nearly identicle games, why not just "re-implement" repair costs.

It's still one game; you just are playing as one faction or another.

Note that this whole idea presupposes at least the first stage of implementation of CW. Not necessarily a galaxy-map, but at least the ability to queue up as a Davion and get matched up with other Davions (and Steiners) to fight somebody FedCom is fighting. Lone Wolves and Mercs fill in the gaps, or fight one another. Factions must be (partially) in and playable, or else the entire Clan invasion makes no sense.

I do worry about any plan that would rely on repair costs however. That quickly crosses into P2W territory. You can buy C-Bills with MC (at least indirectly) and so "balancing" superior tech based on cost is literally giving a competitive advantage to individuals who pay more.

On the other hand, balanced 5v8 battles (50% win rate) give no inherent advantage to either side, so no problem is presented by allowing one to pay to access one side more easily.

Edited by Khanahar, 29 January 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[MWHawke]

Honestly, wouldn't the introduction of a Drop Battle Value System resolve all this? Rate the Clan Mechs at high BV and you already have a balanced drop in terms of what can drop into that match. The system is already dropping IS Mechs into 6v8 and 7v8 games (whether glitch or not, it is still doing it!).

[Khanahar]

MWHawke, on 29 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Honestly, wouldn't the introduction of a Drop Battle Value System resolve all this? Rate the Clan Mechs at high BV and you already have a balanced drop in terms of what can drop into that match. The system is already dropping IS Mechs into 6v8 and 7v8 games (whether glitch or not, it is still doing it!).

BV system would be an unfortunate way to try to balance everything. For one thing, BV would have to be tweaked beyond all recognition to be meaningful in MWO. Also, it would give us another system to learn (and learn to game). Balancing games based on numbers and tonnage is the way to go, as all our MechLabbing is based on that. (We're already optimizing for our weight and number, so no need to learn which weapons are over/undervalued by BV)

And balancing BV for Clan versus IS would be a nightmare.

[Hotthedd]

Wolf87535, on 28 January 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Or perhaps implement clan mechs so that piloting one gains no xp, and has none of the efficiencies to unlock. Ever. Then you have a hard choice between what tech to use.

Since Clan mechs do not have variants (Omni mechs have alternate configs), they cannot skill up past basic. This would help balance the chassis.

[Khanahar]

Hotthedd, on 17 February 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Since Clan mechs do not have variants (Omni mechs have alternate configs), they cannot skill up past basic. This would help balance the chassis.

I suspect the Prime, A, B, C etc. will be available as separate variants. But we'll see. In any event the tiny bonuses provided by things like Speed Tweak will not even approach balancing the vast gap between IS and Clan tech. And PGI will probably want to preserve the grind for XP for Clan chassis/pilots.