17 replies to this topic

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

I propose that the devs create the IIc line mechs to be a cheaper alternative to purchase and grind, or for those of use who prefer to use them over the front line mechs if we go clan tech. The cost of a front line clan tech mech should be significantly greater then any Inner Sphere mech anyway. Compared to buying front line mechs like the Mad Cat, Vulture, Thor, and so on, the IIc line mechs would be much closer to IS costs and could be a great source of fun! Personally I think that it makes a great starting point for those new to the MWO experience and would be a great way for them to get started if they choose clan tech.

[gilliam]

We don't even have clan mechs, nor do we know how clans will be implemented. Isn't this suggestion a bit premature?

[Slater01]

Interesting Idea, but I agree, we have no idea how they will incorporate Clan mechs. Personally I think they will be rewarded, not bought (with cbills at least).

On another note, people shouldn't be Clanners, its against the law.

[Adridos]

Most of the IIC's is unseen, anway.

[General Taskeen]

Adridos, on 25 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Most of the IIC's is unseen, anway.

Not all, most notable (common) Mechs were made into Clan versions often with updated, sleeker looking Chassis.

Commando IIC, Urban Mech IIC, Hunchback IIC, Jenner IIC, Highlander IIC, Guillotine IIC

Under the new agreement, these are Reseen

Phoenix Hawk IIC
Warhammer IIC
Rifleman IIC
Marauder IIC
Shadowhawk IIC
Griffin IIC
Battlemaster IIC

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

gilliam, on 25 January 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

We don't even have clan mechs, nor do we know how clans will be implemented. Isn't this suggestion a bit premature?

It's never to early to discuss and idea, nor is it premature to talk about an idea that could affect how things are implemented.

Adridos, on 25 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Most of the IIC's is unseen, anway.

No, as stated by Taskeen. There are a good number of IIc mechs not in the stupidly named "Unseen" catagory.

General Taskeen, on 25 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Not all, most notable (common) Mechs were made into Clan versions often with updated, sleeker looking Chassis.

Commando IIC, Urban Mech IIC, Hunchback IIC, Jenner IIC, Highlander IIC, Guillotine IIC

Under the new agreement, these are Reseen

Phoenix Hawk IIC
Warhammer IIC
Rifleman IIC
Marauder IIC
Shadowhawk IIC
Griffin IIC
Battlemaster IIC

You forgot the:

• Beowulf IIC
  
• Clint IIC
  
• Conjurer (Hellhound), the Wolverine IIC in all but name; five tons lighter than the original Wolverine
  
• Dervish IIC (apocryphal)
  
• Locust IIC, five tons heavier than the original Locust
  
• Orion IIC
  
• Stinger IIC
  
• Thunderbolt IIC
  
• Wolfhound IIC, a rebuild of Phelan Kell's personal 'Mech and presumably a unique one-off design
  
• Wyvern IIC

So the list of non-unseen is longer then the unseen list of IIc mechs, all of which I would pilot, except maybe the locust. I personally feel this would be a great way to get into the clan side of things for those who are interested in it. This isn't for those of you who have already made enough Cbills to buy a star of clan mechs but for those who join up after the clan invasion and would be NEW to the game. I had hoped intelligence would prevail and you'd would realize that this was more for those who are coming to the game late and for those who like the IIc mechs. It's not for anyone who's got 90million in Cbills and is just waiting impatiently to buy every clan chassis as they release them.

Edited by Werewolf486, 26 January 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[gilliam]

Adridos, on 25 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Most of the IIC's is unseen, anway.

That was an overreaction on FASA's part; it has since been rescinded as far as I am aware.

All of the IIC art was done specifically for Battletech anyways, so it shouldn't be a problem (though I wouldn't be surprised if they exercise caution anyways)

Werewolf486, on 26 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

It's never to early to discuss and idea, nor is it premature to talk about an idea that could affect how things are implemented.

Fair enough.

[Strum Wealh]

gilliam, on 26 January 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

That was an overreaction on FASA's part; it has since been rescinded as far as I am aware.

Indeed, they thought they had secured a new agreement for the non-Macross Unseen, but it turned out they didn't.
The announcement, posted on Catalyst's website in August 2009, is viewable here.

Werewolf486, on 26 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

No, as stated by Taskeen. There are a good number of IIc mechs not in the stupidly named "Unseen" catagory.

You forgot the:

• Beowulf IIC
  
• Clint IIC
  
• Conjurer (Hellhound), the Wolverine IIC in all but name; five tons lighter than the original Wolverine
  
• Dervish IIC (apocryphal)
  
• Locust IIC, five tons heavier than the original Locust
  
• Orion IIC
  
• Stinger IIC
  
• Thunderbolt IIC
  
• Wolfhound IIC, a rebuild of Phelan Kell's personal 'Mech and presumably a unique one-off design
  
• Wyvern IIC

So the list of non-unseen is longer then the unseen list of IIc mechs, all of which I would pilot, except maybe the locust. I personally feel this would be a great way to get into the clan side of things for those who are interested in it. This isn't for those of you who have already made enough Cbills to buy a star of clan mechs but for those who join up after the clan invasion and would be NEW to the game. I had hoped intelligence would prevail and you'd would realize that this was more for those who are coming to the game late and for those who like the IIc mechs. It's not for anyone who's got 90million in Cbills and is just waiting impatiently to buy every clan chassis as they release them.

However, one might want to check the years-of-availability on those.
For example, both the Thunderbolt IIC and Stinger IIC don't come into being until 3085 (the tail-end of the WoB J***D), so it's unlikely that those particular 'Mechs will be in MWO for a while yet (if ever).

Also, both the Locust IIC and Conjourer are both still Unseen, as indicated by their "blacked-out silhouette" profiles on Catalyst's Master Unit List, so double-checking eeach 'Mech's "*seen" status is also advised.

[gilliam]

Strum Wealh, on 26 January 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Indeed, they thought they had secured a new agreement for the non-Macross Unseen, but it turned out they didn't.
The announcement, posted on Catalyst's website in August 2009, is viewable here.

Actually what I was referring to was they pulled most of the clan mechs in TRO 3055.
Despite being original artwork, they pulled the IICs just in case since they were still based off the Unseen, and they pulled a number of other mechs licensed from a third party that was uninvolved in the lawsuit over the images taken from Macross as a precautionary measure.

This was prior to the most recent changing of the status of certain unseens.

Edited by gilliam, 26 January 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Can you at least agree that having IIc mechs as a starting point with a lower cost then the regular clan tech would be a good thing?

[General Taskeen]

Werewolf486, on 27 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Can you at least agree that having IIc mechs as a starting point with a lower cost then the regular clan tech would be a good thing?

Some people are against variety (and freedom) unfortunately.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

General Taskeen, on 27 January 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Some people are against variety (and freedom) unfortunately.

How true....

[Strum Wealh]

Werewolf486, on 27 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Can you at least agree that having IIc mechs as a starting point with a lower cost then the regular clan tech would be a good thing?

Not only can I agree with it, but I put forward a variation of that notion some time ago.

Strum Wealh, on 22 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

My guess is that by the time the Clans are available to common players ("common players" being players who are not also employees of PGI or IGP), they will have implemented most or all of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs used in the Invasion (as listed in TRO 3050) as well as a smattering of "second-line", non-OmniTech Clan BattleMechs (examples include the Peregrine, Hunchback IIC, Grizzly, Highlander IIC, Supernova, and others) for use as Trial 'Mechs.

Among the issues with the previous list is that there are a number of the "IIC 'Mechs" (and non-IIC "second-line" Clan 'Mechs) that would not be available die to certain factors, such as being Unseen (and not having approved Reseen imagery) or not fitting with MWO's timeline, or not having the available variants (as they are generally "standard BattleMechs" rather than OmniMechs).
As for a listing...

• Bane/"Kraken": Unseen; third variant is available in 3054
  
• Beowulf IIC: not Unseen; exactly one variant, not available until 3084
  
• Black Python/"Viper": Unseen; third variant is available in 3066
  
• Commando IIC: not Unseen; exactly one variant
  
• Clint IIC: not Unseen; third variant is available in 3073
  
• Conjourer/"Hellhound": Unseen; third variant is available in 3064
  
• Dervish IIC: non-canon, exactly one variant, not available until 3058
  
• Glass Spider/"Galahad": Unseen; third variant is available in 3065
  
• Great Wyrm: not Unseen, but not enough variants (only two, plus one unique "Hero 'Mech")
  
• Griffin IIC: Unseen; third variant is available in 3060
  
• Grizzly: not Unseen, but not enough variants (only two)
  
• Guillotine IIC: not Unseen, but not enough variants (only two)
  
• Highlander IIC: not Unseen; third variant is available in 3077
  
• Horned Owl/"Peregrine": Unseen; third variant is available in 3061
  
• Howler/"Baboon": Unseen; third variant is available in 3066
  
• Hunchback IIC: not Unseen; third variant is available in 3062
  
• Incubus/"Vixen": Unseen
  
• Jenner IIC: Unseen
  
• Koshi: not Unseen; not available until the Dark Age (3131+)
  
• Locust IIC: Unseen
  
• Marauder IIC: not Unseen ; third variant is available in 3064
  
• Orion IIC: not Unseen; exactly one variant
  
• Phoenix Hawk IIC: Unseen; third variant is available in 3062
  
• Rifleman IIC: Unseen; third variant is available in 3062
  
• Shadow Hawk IIC: Unseen; third variant is available in 3060
  
• Stinger IIC: not Unseen , but not enough variants (only two); not available until 3085
  
• Stone Rhino/"Behemoth": Unseen; third variant is available in 3068
  
• Supernova: not Unseen; third variant is available in 3064
  
• Thunderbolt IIC: not Unseen ; not enough variants (only two); not available until 3085
  
• UrbanMech IIC: not Unseen, but not enough variants (only two)
  
• Vapor Eagle/"Goshawk": Unseen; third variant is available in 3062
  
• Warhammer IIC: Unseen; third variant is available in 3060
  
• Wolfhound IIC: not Unseen, exactly one variant, and not available until 3051
  
• Wyvern IIC: not Unseen; but not enough variants (only two)

General Taskeen, on 27 January 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Some people are against variety (and freedom) unfortunately.

It's not an issue of being "against variety (and freedom)", but one of acknowleging that 'Mechs must meet certain criteria to even be considered for inclusion in MWO... and those 'Mechs that do not meet one or more of these criteria are unlikely to be considered, much less implemented.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

To me it just makes sense to have the Clan IIc as the starting or cheapest Clan tech mechs in the game and allow those who want clan tech ASAP to be able to afford it sooner. I don't think we need this mixed tech idea to continue where you're mounting Clan tech on IS chassis either.

[Strum Wealh]

Werewolf486, on 29 January 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

To me it just makes sense to have the Clan IIc as the starting or cheapest Clan tech mechs in the game and allow those who want clan tech ASAP to be able to afford it sooner. I don't think we need this mixed tech idea to continue where you're mounting Clan tech on IS chassis either.

And I generally agree, as noted by my quoted post regarding the use of second-line 'Mechs (including IICs) as the Clan version of Trial 'Mechs.

However, actually going through the list shows that the vast majority either don't have three timeline-appropriate variants or don't have three variants at all (and, thus, don't fit into MWO's XP system, as three variants are needed to unlock the Elite proficiencies), and the few that have the variants (along with a significant fraction of the rest) are considered by Catalyst (the current rights-holder for BattleTech) to be Unseen (and, for the moment, it seems like PGI isn't terribly interested in touching the Unseen/Reseen issue with a 'Mech-sized pole).

As much as we might generally agree (even though the details might differ), the problem is that all of the second-line Clan 'Mechs have rather strong points working against their inclusion in-game for the foreseeable future.

[General Taskeen]

Strum Wealh, on 27 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

"against variety (and freedom)"

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 January 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Strum Wealh, on 29 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

And I generally agree, as noted by my quoted post regarding the use of second-line 'Mechs (including IICs) as the Clan version of Trial 'Mechs.

However, actually going through the list shows that the vast majority either don't have three timeline-appropriate variants or don't have three variants at all (and, thus, don't fit into MWO's XP system, as three variants are needed to unlock the Elite proficiencies), and the few that have the variants (along with a significant fraction of the rest) are considered by Catalyst (the current rights-holder for BattleTech) to be Unseen (and, for the moment, it seems like PGI isn't terribly interested in touching the Unseen/Reseen issue with a 'Mech-sized pole).

As much as we might generally agree (even though the details might differ), the problem is that all of the second-line Clan 'Mechs have rather strong points working against their inclusion in-game for the foreseeable future.

Only if you really really want to adhere to the entire timeline thing, 3 variants of IIc could just be created. I believe that being to tied to the timeline can hurt this projects ability to grow. Setting the IIc's as trial only mechs on clan tech might be the way to go until the timeline reaches a point that it supports 3 variants of IIc's.

[Odanan]

If they add only the IIC variants of IS mechs in game (Jenner, Hunchback, Orion, Highlander), these IIC mechs could share the same XP tree.