260 replies to this topic

[Greyfyl]

Serapth, on 27 January 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Well they will answer.

With strawmen, misdirection and or ad hominem attacks.

True.

[Corvus Antaka]

You TS hackers will pay!!!

"shakes fist"

oh...wait.

[MischiefSC]

I have no problem with premades, on my team or the other. I like it when they're on my team, they tend to organize well and are often very nice. I have no problem with people using teamspeak. It doesn't bother me.

The only responses so far to why they can't be separated into their own queue though have been logical fallacy arguments, other than that they are not common enough to fill a queue.

Is there a different argument against matching premades to premades? I'm not asking anyone to justify why they use TS or premades. I'm just asking why they have an objection to being matched against another premades, or if they do object at all.

[FerrolupisXIII]

Greyfyl, on 27 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

And again, you think you are going to change the way a large percentage of the pc gaming community wants to game? By yourself, because they hurt your little feelings by not playing YOUR way. That's sad to say the least. Be a man and admit you like playing at an advantage.

This whole thread boils down to a small group of spoiled little children that don't want to see their advantage taken away from them. Millions of excuses, but at the end of the day they will never answer the one simple question.

How is not the right thing for the sake of balance to have one 4man on each team and fill out with pugs?

Nobody is losing their 'right to group with friends' or the right 'to be social', etc..... you would just have to do so from a position of equal footing instead of almost always being at an advantage, and that my friends is what you are objecting to, even though 99% of you won't admit it.

you do realize that much of you've typed is whining about how someone wont play the game YOUR way either?


to be clear, i'm a huge fan of balancing teams based on their combat rating, and the game should indeed track how many pre-made teams are on each side. it would go very far in helping those who wish to Pug and not get into a group. It would make the matches much more thrilling. also indicators of the fact there is a team, such as different colours in the load in screen, would be great so you know what you're up against.

not that i think that would stop some people from attempting the 3050 reenactment of Custer's Charge...

[Grabes]

Greyfyi,

No one is stopping you from just dropping as you are now. It's just a fact of online gaming. Your going to end up playing with, and against people on voice coms.

The whole argument is just pointless man. Use it or not, it's not going anywhere.

Just have to accept it.

[Serapth]

Grabes, on 27 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Greyfyi,

No one is stopping you from just dropping as you are now. It's just a fact of online gaming. Your going to end up playing with, and against people on voice coms.

The whole argument is just pointless man. Use it or not, it's not going anywhere.

Just have to accept it.

No, we dont.

We can shout and scream and make a stink until we either quit playing, or PGI realizes the problem they've created.

Seriously, the small change of putting premades on each team and so much of this trouble goes away.

FerrolupisXIII, on 27 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

you do realize that much of you've typed is whining about how someone wont play the game YOUR way either?


to be clear, i'm a huge fan of balancing teams based on their combat rating, and the game should indeed track how many pre-made teams are on each side. it would go very far in helping those who wish to Pug and not get into a group. It would make the matches much more thrilling. also indicators of the fact there is a team, such as different colours in the load in screen, would be great so you know what you're up against.

not that i think that would stop some people from attempting the 3050 reenactment of Custer's Charge...

Reading comprehension aint your strong suit is it?

He is simply calling for premades to be balanced across teams... how is that changing the way others play or telling people to play the way he does? Well other than taking away easy mode that is.

[Bluescuba]

Greyfyl, on 27 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

This whole thread boils down to a small group of spoiled little children that don't want to see their advantage taken away from them. Millions of excuses, but at the end of the day they will never answer the one simple question.

LOL no this is all about people who want to force others to change because they don't want to play the game as designed, and then realise that they have put themselves at a disadvantage and cry foul.

So who is the little spoiled child here... the one who plays as intended or the one who refuses to; and then demands that the game is changed?

[sC4r]

well i dont know... we sometimes do some ehm 4 atlas drops stand shoulder to shoulder and march forward at really high speed...
never heard anyone noticing us doing a premade or using TS nor bitching about losing 8:0 or that 4xac20+srm100 is OP ... though only thing you hear is STOMP STOMP STOMP and loads of laughing

[Grabes]

Like a dead horse. Honestly, the point remains.

You are, at some point in your gaming life, going to come across people on VOIPS.

If you can not rationalize this and just accept that you will never have a 'fair' playing field beyond everyone following the same ingame rules and values for the system within, then you may want to just stick to singleplayer games.

Being at a advantage, and disadvantage in the games you play is really the core of game mechanics. You add in the huge unknown variable known as being human, any system that tries to find perfect balance between opposing players will be inherently flawed.

We can get close to a fair field of play, but it will never be fully fair.

Just a pure fact of existence fellas.

[FerrolupisXIII]

Serapth, on 27 January 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

No, we dont.

We can shout and scream and make a stink until we either quit playing, or PGI realizes the problem they've created.

Seriously, the small change of putting premades on each team and so much of this trouble goes away.




Reading comprehension aint your strong suit is it?

He is simply calling for premades to be balanced across teams... how is that changing the way others play or telling people to play the way he does? Well other than taking away easy mode that is.

Well i did read all 5 pages of the thread. so I'd like to think i can read fine.

in fact i agree with his stance on the fact premades need to be balanced per team. so please to not insult me reading comprehension skills. my point with the first half of my post is that BOTH sides of the TS argument (you know, the one this thread is about?) in fact have the same excuse.

"we want to play our way, and you're wrong for trying to force us to do otherwise"

which is really a silly excuse, but you wont hear me saying you're a "spoiled little child" because you disagree with me. or kicking and screaming and making a fuss over something that is actually part of the current game.

[MischiefSC]

Okay, once again, not asking for anyone to justify for or against VOIP.

My question is, does anyone have an actual argument against having premades/people using VOIP queue against other people using VOIP?

Other than too few people actually doing premades/voip to fill their own match lists is there any actual argument against it?

[King Arthur IV]

you mean the ecm bypass??

[Kensaisama]

The only thing I am getting out of all this is "I'm entitled to fair play and a level playing field".

Sorry cupcakes, life isn't fair, you are entitled to nothing and a level playing field is an illusion. Most of you will not understand this until you're older, and if you are older and you still don't get this, well thats not my problem.

Edited by Kensaisama, 27 January 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[RainbowToh]

Isnt a premade group always matched against with an opposing premade group?

[Boris The Spider]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I have no problem with premades, on my team or the other. I like it when they're on my team, they tend to organize well and are often very nice. I have no problem with people using teamspeak. It doesn't bother me.

The only responses so far to why they can't be separated into their own queue though have been logical fallacy arguments, other than that they are not common enough to fill a queue.

Is there a different argument against matching premades to premades? I'm not asking anyone to justify why they use TS or premades. I'm just asking why they have an objection to being matched against another premades, or if they do object at all.

Mischief, you cannot just ask people to justify their position then disqualify their main argument! A solo only queue would, in my eyes at least cause huge problems, I have went into detail on this a few times in the past and gave at least 10 unique reasons all based around the problems with the matchmaker.

I have no problem with groups being given an extra 5 seconds or so in searching to try to find another same size group for the other team. then filling out the tonnage difference with solo players. I have also seen no group players on this thread nay-say the idea of matching groups against groups, perhaps I missed it.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I have no problem with premades, on my team or the other. I like it when they're on my team, they tend to organize well and are often very nice. I have no problem with people using teamspeak. It doesn't bother me.

The only responses so far to why they can't be separated into their own queue though have been logical fallacy arguments, other than that they are not common enough to fill a queue.

Is there a different argument against matching premades to premades? I'm not asking anyone to justify why they use TS or premades. I'm just asking why they have an objection to being matched against another premades, or if they do object at all.

A well wrote post. Can I reverse the question? Whats wrong with actually facing some teams that is better than you?To be 'competitive' don't you need a challenge? Sometimes a team is better than you some times they are worse! I live is Detroit Look at most of Our Sports teams! Specially our football team!!! They suck. But they still have to go up against the Superbowl champs every season.!

[FerrolupisXIII]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Okay, once again, not asking for anyone to justify for or against VOIP.

My question is, does anyone have an actual argument against having premades/people using VOIP queue against other people using VOIP?

Other than too few people actually doing premades/voip to fill their own match lists is there any actual argument against it?

No, i do not. its called an 8 man, in fact.

as for the smaller groups, a few problems:

1) how do you recognize if a group is on VOIP? the game does not know TS or Mumble, or Vent, etc is running. how can we que up? and before you say something like "have them check a box saying they are on VOIP," i applaud your trust in the denizens of this game. i however would not trust them as far as i can throw an atlas.

2) at peak hours, given problem 1 is solved, this would work fine. but at off peak, you could see a lot of failed to find matches. just as with the current 8 man format.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

every mech warrior title and league online has used voice coms to play, to think this game would be different is kind of ignorant.
problem is back then you were able to get on someone coms cause it was posted in the room info to play that match.
since everything is a random match you cant do this anymore.
you cant bid maps mechs stock or custom and everything else inbetween includeing who host to limit lag.
this is where the problem comes in if pugs had a idea who would be on there team in every drop and could get on coms like it was on the zone or nbt days.
that was why there wasnt a problem,b4 someone sais what if you didnt have a mic you could still listen and that the key probem is the lack of being able to communication in a pug. in the heat of battle you cant stop and ask for help or direct fire.

there are no hot keys to im shooting this guy need help or anything that you can hit to give a quick responce with out typeing it out.

the big reason it sucks being a pugger its not that you are worse then teams players you just are handicapped in this game with out a lobby and anyways of having a idea who going to be on your team.

[MischiefSC]

I'm using VOIP and premades interchangeably in my question. If you drop with a group, using ts or not I guess, why not allow premades to fill from a premade queue first? As in 4x + 4x vs the same, or 2+2+4, or whatever. If that doesn't fill THEN bundle in pugs. Is there a logical objection to that?

I have every confidence that the Elo will do more to balance gameplay than any sort of premade vs pug setup but I just see the arguments here a lot but have yet to see an actual legitimate argument against grouping premade against premade whenever possible.

As I said before, I enjoy pugging with premades. I'm not in a position to use any sort of VOIP but I do enjoy teamwork. I've been in some absolutely amazing pug games with and against premades. Earlier I was with a group of pugs that absolutely STOMPED a premade set up for missileboats, ECM scouts and sniper builds (6xPPC Stalkers). Very satisfying. I don't find premades inherently imbalancing, just that it skews the odds in favor of one side having less newbies/suicidal rambo sorts.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

OP,

I'm with you here. Voice chat for coordination is absolutely the way the game is meant to be played. Unfortunately, in game voice chat has yet to be added which is a shame in my opinion as it gives 4 man premade teams a massive advantage which leads to the frustration of casual gamers in PUGs. Still, PGI will eventually add in game voice chat and that will make the game so much more fun with coordinated teams acting and reacting together as a cohesive fighting force. Well in theory anyways.