260 replies to this topic

[Mk1Cursed]

Redmace, on 27 January 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

You are not entitled to any advantage or balancing by choosing not to participate in a team,

I participate in a team every single game, I'm just not able to use voice comms with them.

You are not ENTITLED to an unfair advantage by using 3rd party software.

I really don't understand what some people have against a level playing field apart from desperately fragile egos?

[Bluescuba]

Mk1Cursed, on 26 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Could have been me on the end of another 8-0 drubbing soloing against premades this morning.

Teamspeak gives you a massive advantage that is not available to everyone else through the normal game, is that not an "exploit"?

Last time I checked TF2, CS, etal had INTEGRATED voice comms, isn't that fair? Everyone CAN use voice in game without resorting to a 3rd party app?

PGI need to dig themselves out of a hole quick smart because TS *IS* being exploited by premades to smash every game. It's getting really boring really quickly.

You're welcome to your "coordinated team experience" but don't kid yourself that you're leveraging an unfair advantage over most other players.

I really don't understand why PGI didn't sort comms out in Alpha or Closed Beta before inviting the world to experience their broken matchmaking and "team game" that lacks the function for a team to effectively communicate unless they use another program.

It is only an unfair advantage if one party is denied the opportunity. Here everyone has the opportunity to use TS its a free app.

You arguement is like going to a football/soccer match in a muddly field everyone has trainers, but over at the side line the is a box with football boots (you know the ones with studs for soft ground) that you can choose to use for the match. There are enough for everyone. The choice is your whether you use the boots, but if you don't you do not have the right to say the the people who did choose the use the boots had an unfair advantage. No they had a fair advantage and your choice just makes you an ***** with a greater chance of being a losser.

[stevemac]

Mk1Cursed, on 27 January 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

I participate in a team every single game, I'm just not able to use voice comms with them.

You are not ENTITLED to an unfair advantage by using 3rd party software.

I really don't understand what some people have against a level playing field apart from desperately fragile egos?

Its free and its not like TS will give you points boost. and to all the ppl that think its not fair to use TS.......Life is not fair get over it.

[BlakeAteIt]

C3 is a part of the game. Check in the settings. There's a check box for it. The game is literally configured to work with voice comms. If you don't want to use it, that's cool. You are not entitled to complain when other people use designed game features.

If you want to argue that TS3 is somehow OP compared to C3... I'm not sure how to really test that.

[MischiefSC]

I don't think TS is unfair but I would ask -

What is the objection to premade drops having a separate queue? Assuming there were enough players to populate it.

[BlakeAteIt]

What is the objection to mechs with medium lasers having a separate queue? Assuming there were enough players to populate it.

Edited by BlakeAteIt, 27 January 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I don't think TS is unfair but I would ask -

What is the objection to premade drops having a separate queue? Assuming there were enough players to populate it.

Essentially full units already do, with the 8 man system the problem was the setup and requiring a full 8 players to launch, some people argue they only have a small pool of friends that they play with.

Which is fine, what would have been better for the 8 man que, is anything above 3 people is automatically placed in the 8 man que.

[MischiefSC]

@Blakeatlet;

False analogy arguments have nothing to do with the question. What is the actual argument against separate grouping for premades vs pugs? I've seen the debate several times just no actual logically consistent ones aside from there are not enough people to populate premade only queues?

@DVMcKenna;

What about grouping them in 2x and 4x groups? So each side is 2x +2x + 4x, or 4x + 4x, or what have you.

Again, I get that especially at off peak there is not currently enough premade players to even fill that sort of queue but is there a logical argument against it?

[Lorcan Lladd]

BlakeAteIt, on 27 January 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

C3 is a part of the game. Check in the settings. There's a check box for it. The game is literally configured to work with voice comms. If you don't want to use it, that's cool. You are not entitled to complain when other people use designed game features.

If you want to argue that TS3 is somehow OP compared to C3... I'm not sure how to really test that.

To clarify, C3 isn't fully implemented in MWO yet.
It can be used in-game, but it will not automatically put all players in a group on the same voice channel as it is supposed to; even if it did so, however, that would change very little for the solo and casual players, since they don't drop as part of a group at all.

It would be a completely different matter if it worked as you appear to think it does.

As it is, not being a part of a group and being unable to communicate with their team mates puts them at a disadvantage more significant than it might seem at a first glance; they are often stuck with a crippling number of DC and AFK players as well as farmers and bots at the beginning of a match, more so than grouped players are, not to mention the disparities in skill which are currently not addressed by the matchmaker.
And even skilled players dropping solo are not be able to respond to tactics employed by the enemy as they possess only the text chat to communicate with their drop team.

Since MWO does not support respawns, the team of solo players will likely lose the match before they are able to adapt in a individual basis.

Because of these issues it is perfectly possible for a solo player in MWO to win only 20-40% of his or her matches and to possess a KDR of 0.5 or lower; even for players of below-average skill, this is intolerable - a good matchmaker would ideally result in 50% WLR and 1.0 KDR for everyone

Perhaps things will change in the future with Phase 3 and CW - of course, the perfect solution to the ails of the entire playerbase would be a in-game lobby, but the developers have stated that they're not currently working on it.

For now, at least, pubs have a valid gripe with the system - you don't have to agree with them, and in fact you probably couldn't, as you're not one of them... You just need to understand their position if you're going to contribute to this discussion.

[Bluescuba]

Get back on topic... "is TS an exploit"

We all know matchmaking is fubar, leave that for another thread.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Staying on-topic does not mean we have to participate in a pointless chain of insults and derisive comments; we can discuss all things related to the topic in the hopes of reaching a consensus and contributing to the development of the game.

This includes the current situation of solo players and groups as well as the disputes which have originated from it.

A player is extremely unlikely to use the TS servers for any reason other than dropping as part of a group; therefore, the issues of the matchmaker and group/solo queues are concerned with the topic.
But you didn't read the post, of course.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 27 January 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[MischiefSC]

For TS to be an exploit it would have to be outside of the game developers plan for how the game should be played, ergo an inherently illogical question. It's been made perfectly clear that teams using teamspeak are not only supported by encouraged by the developers.

Teamspeak has been approved by the developers and is effectively part of the game at present. That less than 25% of gameplay is represented in its use, so much so that it can't populate its own matches consistently, is a separate problem.

To be an exploit it would have to be using a game mechanic or outside of game mechanic in a way not intended by the game developers or contrary to designed game restrictions. That's not the case, hence it's not an exploit. I'd assumed the question was intended as 'does teamspeak provide an unreasonable advantage'.

[Lorcan Lladd]

I don't expect anyone to read the entire length of the thread to 'get it' but it's made very clear in the OP that the thread isn't really meant to discuss whether VOIP is an exploit - that would be ridiculous, as you've observed.

[MischiefSC]

I've tracked almost 250 matches at this point how many people on my side were premades (or were willing to admit it anyway), and a rough estimate of premades on the other side (announced or clear team drops. 4x matching camo) based largely on what percentage of drops on my side were premade.

It's not as big a difference as people seem to make it. The real premade 'stomps' are close to 1 in 10 depending on when you play. Having premades on my side is not a guaranteed win but it helps. Teamspeak isn't overpowered, having a larger probability of more members of your team being new, inexperienced or Rambo suicide players is a problem. Better balancing of skill level in a match is far more significant than teamspeak in my opinion.

I'm just curious about the arguments for not separating out the queue. Just a simple, logical argument for not doing it aside from the inability to field enough premade players to fill it out.

[Grabes]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

I'm just curious about the arguments for not separating out the queue. Just a simple, logical argument for not doing it aside from the inability to field enough premade players to fill it out.

There really isn't a argument against it because it just doesn't matter. It really just does not matter. Every person here compalining about any type of VOIP use probably plays another game where there are poeple using it there too.

Games by they're nature are SOCIAL.

To deny otherwise is utterly foolish.

This whole debate is pointless because VOIP's are not going anywhere.

Your going to have to learn to handle it.

That's all there is to it. Get on teamspeak, find friends to play with without using a voice program, whatever, that is just how you play.

Any game experience is enhanced with interaction. Even solitaire, it's called coffee and conversation while you try to beat the devil's game.

[Serapth]

Mk1Cursed, on 27 January 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

I really don't understand what some people have against a level playing field apart from desperately fragile egos?

That is the crux of it. Why I wont even bother talking to someone like PANZERBUNNY after reading this thread.

[FerrolupisXIII]

so, is my mouse with extra buttons, supplied by a third party for me to use in my games, an exploit? it gives me an inherent advantage in having access to more weapons groups at the tip of my fingers.

how about Macro keys? I'm actually not a fan but they aren't an exploit either.

or you can edit your field of view in the game directory. how about that?

i happily admit i play with pre-mades, on TS. in fact if people ask in game i tell them damn strait, and we're proud of it. as has been stated there is integrated voice software in the game. use it. i personally enjoy TS because in many games the in game voice chat is populated with immature narcissistic little trolls that i have no interest in listening to. (Halo, call of duty and the like spring to mind)

[Serapth]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

I've tracked almost 250 matches at this point how many people on my side were premades (or were willing to admit it anyway), and a rough estimate of premades on the other side (announced or clear team drops. 4x matching camo) based largely on what percentage of drops on my side were premade.

It's not as big a difference as people seem to make it. The real premade 'stomps' are close to 1 in 10 depending on when you play. Having premades on my side is not a guaranteed win but it helps. Teamspeak isn't overpowered, having a larger probability of more members of your team being new, inexperienced or Rambo suicide players is a problem. Better balancing of skill level in a match is far more significant than teamspeak in my opinion.

I'm just curious about the arguments for not separating out the queue. Just a simple, logical argument for not doing it aside from the inability to field enough premade players to fill it out.

During the day I would say its about 10%. During weeknights, more like 50%. During Saturday night... feels closer to 80%.

The vast majority of people arent calling for them to nerf TS, or even premades. People simply want them to balance premades across both sides.

To this date I have never heard an argument against that simple concept that didn't sound like "don't take away my easy mode".

[Greyfyl]

Grabes, on 27 January 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

There really isn't a argument against it because it just doesn't matter. It really just does not matter. Every person here compalining about any type of VOIP use probably plays another game where there are poeple using it there too.

Games by they're nature are SOCIAL.

To deny otherwise is utterly foolish.

This whole debate is pointless because VOIP's are not going anywhere.

Your going to have to learn to handle it.

That's all there is to it. Get on teamspeak, find friends to play with without using a voice program, whatever, that is just how you play.

Any game experience is enhanced with interaction. Even solitaire, it's called coffee and conversation while you try to beat the devil's game.

And again, you think you are going to change the way a large percentage of the pc gaming community wants to game? By yourself, because they hurt your little feelings by not playing YOUR way. That's sad to say the least. Be a man and admit you like playing at an advantage.

This whole thread boils down to a small group of spoiled little children that don't want to see their advantage taken away from them. Millions of excuses, but at the end of the day they will never answer the one simple question.

How is not the right thing for the sake of balance to have one 4man on each team and fill out with pugs?

Nobody is losing their 'right to group with friends' or the right 'to be social', etc..... you would just have to do so from a position of equal footing instead of almost always being at an advantage, and that my friends is what you are objecting to, even though 99% of you won't admit it.

[Serapth]

Greyfyl, on 27 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Millions of excuses, but at the end of the day they will never answer the one simple question.

Well they will answer.

With strawmen, misdirection and or ad hominem attacks.