260 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

Solution to this entire "conflict":

All players are required to be in a group before dropping. Min group size 2, max 8, with weight-class matching.

This completely eliminates the "premade vs pug" BS that's been polluting these forums for months. Everyone is in a "premade". Everyone has integrated voice comms with at least one other person(via the C3 implementation).

/issue

[Greyfyl]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 27 January 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

show your source numbers for your imaginative estimate

Otherwise you should have just said "I can pretend so that itll make me feel better" where you put "I can imagine"

All you have to do is look at two things that happened right after OB started.

The rush to implement phase 1 to stop the 8man pugstomping that was going on.
The fact that they even considered 3rd person view.

People were trying the game and quickly saying 'screw this pos'. If you don't think so, you are naive and drinking PGI kool-aid. How badly the pugstomping is effecting the ability of the game to keep new players as of now.... only PGI knows. But my gut instinct is that they will continue to allow pugstomping at least at the beginning of phase 3 to see how it goes. From the comments they have made, they want the premade players to feel 'special'.

[Greyfyl]

Kunae, on 27 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Solution to this entire "conflict":

All players are required to be in a group before dropping. Min group size 2, max 8, with weight-class matching.

This completely eliminates the "premade vs pug" BS that's been polluting these forums for months. Everyone is in a "premade". Everyone has integrated voice comms with at least one other person(via the C3 implementation).

/issue

Actually this would help greatly, except for the fact that there are people that simply will not continue to play a game where they are forced into listening to some of the garbage I have heard in TS. And yes, from what I have seen, vile players in TS is the exception, not the rule. But they are there.

I do think however, that the pugging community could be quite vile on it's own. Play a game on x-box live with voice and you will quickly see why this might not be as great an idea as it first seems.

[Kunae]

Greyfyl, on 27 January 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Actually this would help greatly, except for the fact that there are people that simply will not continue to play a game where they are forced into listening to some of the garbage I have heard in TS. And yes, from what I have seen, vile players in TS is the exception, not the rule. But they are there.

I do think however, that the pugging community could be quite vile on it's own. Play a game on x-box live with voice and you will quickly see why this might not be as great an idea as it first seems.

Yep. But since you can choose who you group with, you just group with someone who is tolerable, to you and your particular tastes.

Just like everyone who uses TS3, now, does.

[Serapth]

Kunae, on 27 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Solution to this entire "conflict":

All players are required to be in a group before dropping. Min group size 2, max 8, with weight-class matching.

This completely eliminates the "premade vs pug" BS that's been polluting these forums for months. Everyone is in a "premade". Everyone has integrated voice comms with at least one other person(via the C3 implementation).

/issue

Yes, force your gaming style on the majority... that will work well and not kill the player base at all...

[Sinnersaix]

Everyone can use C3...

[Dimento Graven]

I realize how pointless it is to post on page 9 of a thread but anyway, here goes...

The stupidity of calling voip an "unfair" advantage is laughable, especially in a game that simulates a future state of 'modern warfare.'

Apparently these, we'll be generous and call them, people think that in real warfare you have millions of troops running around not talking to each other. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I've seen a post in this thread where it was suggested that everone be forced to be in a group before being allowed to 'drop' into a match.

I can agree with that.

Their reall issues is not just that VOIP provides a measurable advantage, it's also that in using VOIP you have to have at least 2 people cooperating and playing as a premade.

The PRE-MADE is what burns people up, those anti social nitwits out there just to stroke their own epeen with headshots and such. ABSOLUTELY no one should be allowed to play this game without first being in a group, period. 'Modern warfare', future state, or otherwise requires cooperation on the battlefield. You want to be a 'lone wolf' go find another game, this game will NEVER be for you, and it should NOT EVER even in the slightest little bit consider attempting to accomodate them.

Once community warfare begins, if you're not part of a community you will be handicaped and will be nothing but a burden to any team you happen to drop with.

You have to learn to cooperate, you have to learn to communicate. Not being able or willing to do those things but coming here to cry about how 'unfair' it is the worse kind of self-centered stupidity.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 27 January 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[Arthur Heath]

Pretty much sums up the whole thread......

Edited by Arthur Heath, 27 January 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Confirmation Bias

False Consensus

Cognitive Bias

Three concepts that seem absolutely required to post on this forum.

Most people who play MWO or any other game for that matter do not want to use something like TeamSpeak. Maybe it's preference, maybe it's necessity, the reason is irrelevant. Some people do use TeamSpeak. Maybe it's preference, maybe it's comfort level, the reason is irrelevant.

Teamspeak has a lot to offer in this sort of game both in terms of enjoyment and tactical advantage. That just is what it is. It's not bad nor is it something that needs 'nerfed'. In some ways it's comparable to 3rd person view, it's a way to play the game that comes down to personal preference but also impacts the 'fairness' of the game. If you don't like to play in the way that offers the most benefit you can either play the game in a way you don't enjoy or you can play at a disadvantage.

If some means of balancing premades vs pugs isn't developed it will effectively disenfranchise over 75% of the people who play the game. Of that greater than 75% it's not unreasonable to assume many of them will lose interest because of it. Fortunately there is a means of balancing it in the works, if that doesn't resolve it something else will need to.

TS/grouping is an advantage that only a small minority of people take advantage of, but for them it adds a lot to the game. It's great, it should stay obviously and has a lot to offer to the game. However it would be foolish and self-destructive to cater only to that style of play. Currently you can't even fill matches with group/TS only players. That alone should be enough reason to approve of balancing it.

Then again I've yet to really see anyone argue against balancing grouped vs pug players - who is still arguing against balancing group drops with pugs?

[Cybermech]

lolz
I can't believe this is still going.

[Kunae]

Serapth, on 27 January 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Yes, force your gaming style on the majority... that will work well and not kill the player base at all...

ROFL

Team play is what this game is all about. This is not a single-player game.

Learn this, it will serve you well. Disregard, and well... you'll continue to QQ about something that you choose to do, contrary to the game.

Edited by Kunae, 27 January 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Confirmation Bias

False Consensus

Cognitive Bias

Three concepts that seem absolutely required to post on this forum.

Most people who play MWO or any other game for that matter do not want to use something like TeamSpeak.

With all due respect, that's one hell of an assumption there bucko. You got some actual statistics to back it up? Because it seems counter intuitive that people would knowingly NOT want to communicate and group with people on a regular basis for an MMORPG. I really think you're talking out your *** on that statement.

Quote

Maybe it's preference, maybe it's necessity, the reason is irrelevant. Some people do use TeamSpeak. Maybe it's preference, maybe it's comfort level, the reason is irrelevant.

I would argue, using the same out of my *** statistics you're apparently using, that MOST people actually do use some form of VOIP. That it's the unfortunately loud minority that absolutely refuse to do so.

Quote

Teamspeak has a lot to offer in this sort of game both in terms of enjoyment and tactical advantage. That just is what it is. It's not bad nor is it something that needs 'nerfed'. In some ways it's comparable to 3rd person view, it's a way to play the game that comes down to personal preference but also impacts the 'fairness' of the game. If you don't like to play in the way that offers the most benefit you can either play the game in a way you don't enjoy or you can play at a disadvantage.

Also keeping in mind that PGI spent some effort/cash doing at least a minor integration with C3 VOIP, so that would seem to make it fairly clear the understanding that communication and cooperation are going to be a major factor of this game.

Quote

If some means of balancing premades vs pugs isn't developed it will effectively disenfranchise over 75% of the people who play the game. Of that greater than 75% it's not unreasonable to assume many of them will lose interest because of it. Fortunately there is a means of balancing it in the works, if that doesn't resolve it something else will need to.

Again, I'd love to know where you're getting these statistics! 75%? Really? I seriously doubt it, more probably somewhere less than 50%, and I'd wager somewhere well below 25%, given the number of, and size of, 'merc groups out there for this game.

Quote

TS/grouping is an advantage that only a small minority of people take advantage of, but for them it adds a lot to the game. It's great, it should stay obviously and has a lot to offer to the game. However it would be foolish and self-destructive to cater only to that style of play. Currently you can't even fill matches with group/TS only players. That alone should be enough reason to approve of balancing it.

No, it's not foolish nor self-destructive, why? Because of the minority of idiots can still raise an all to out of proportion ruckus over the fact that cooperative play will 999,999,999 times out of 1,000,000,000 beat non-coperative lone wolves all working alone. The game is simulating warfare of the 34th century and beyond. While the previous 10,000 years has taken a hit on technology, we all still got radios and no one has been hit hard enough to NOT understand that communicating with your troops is a good thing. Not allowing people to go lone wolf would eliminate that silliness. They don't want to play and cooperate with others? Fine, don't play this game. You will be constantly miserable and frustrated, better to stay away so that the vast majority of people capable of communication and cooperation can play in peace.

Quote

Then again I've yet to really see anyone argue against balancing grouped vs pug players - who is still arguing against balancing group drops with pugs?

Pugs should NOT be catered to in this game, ever. This game is going to be about COMMUNITY warfare. You can't have COMMUNITY without communication and cooperation. If you don't want to join the COMMUNITY in some fashion, don't play.

Do the majority of non-8 man matches contain "pick up guys", probably yes, it can't help but be so. But are the 'majority' of "pick up guys" not also part of some 'merc group? That I don't know. I suspect only a minority are true lone wolves, refusing to find a group of people to regularly group with. You know, that's your choice, but don't expect to be catered to. Don't expect the game to be "dumbed down" so that you can stroke your epeen with lucky crits.

You want to play all by yourself, your choice, but that is NOT what this game is about.

Go reread all the info PGI has put out about it, attempt to read for comprehension.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 27 January 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Greyfyl, on 27 January 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

All you have to do is look at two things that happened right after OB started.

Then all you have to do is find the dev post with the population graph that shows you what peaks and lulls are in an online game (and how it trends upwards here not downwards)
but if youd prefer to call them liars have fun with that

Dimento Graven, on 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

You want to play all by yourself, your choice, but that is NOT what this game is about.

Go reread all the info PGI has put out about it, attempt to read for comprehension.

then with all respect the devs were dumb to start the game in "lone wolf mode" because them solos think that mode is meant to cater to them.

[Grugore]

Mk1Cursed, on 26 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Could have been me on the end of another 8-0 drubbing soloing against premades this morning.

Teamspeak gives you a massive advantage that is not available to everyone else through the normal game, is that not an "exploit"?

Last time I checked TF2, CS, etal had INTEGRATED voice comms, isn't that fair? Everyone CAN use voice in game without resorting to a 3rd party app?

PGI need to dig themselves out of a hole quick smart because TS *IS* being exploited by premades to smash every game. It's getting really boring really quickly.

You're welcome to your "coordinated team experience" but don't kid yourself that you're leveraging an unfair advantage over most other players.

I really don't understand why PGI didn't sort comms out in Alpha or Closed Beta before inviting the world to experience their broken matchmaking and "team game" that lacks the function for a team to effectively communicate unless they use another program.

Even if the game had integrated voice coms, pugs would still be getting rolled. Most of them have no grasp of tactics or teamwork. They like to play Rambo and try to win the game alone, and they're the ones who always blame their incompetence on something else. Like TS. Pretty sad.

[anonymous175]

Intredasting.

[Scryed]

See this is what happens when you let the stupids breed with other stupids, they make more stupids.

[MischiefSC]

Dimento Graven, on 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

With all due respect, that's one hell of an assumption there bucko. You got some actual statistics to back it up? Because it seems counter intuitive that people would knowingly NOT want to communicate and group with people on a regular basis for an MMORPG. I really think you're talking out your *** on that statement.

I would argue, using the same out of my *** statistics you're apparently using, that MOST people actually do use some form of VOIP. That it's the unfortunately loud minority that absolutely refuse to do so.

I appreciate that you're concerned. I'd point you to the link at the top of my post called 'confirmation bias'. If you VOIP, almost everyone you know voips. Here are where I got the associated statistics:

First, there's the fact that group drops (which would be the only ones to use teamspeak) can't even fill servers to play with each other they are such a small percentage of players. That's probably the easiest and clearest indication of a lack of VOIP use.

Second, there's the actual population breakdown of gamers. Only a tiny percentage play multiplayer games (social interaction games) at all.

As anecdotal evidence, even games designed for MP and sold as MP find that few players actually want MP at all.

Call of Duty, surprisingly enough.

Diablo 3 as well.

It's not an opinion but a statistical fact that most people who play games only about 16% play social games with any frequency at all (more than a couple hours a week). This translates directly into how many people want to play the social aspect of games like MWO. Again, reference back to the lack of group drops to fill servers.

I'd love to see some hard specifics released by PGI on how many people drop in groups vs pugging but it's not a hard metric to estimate. Given that less than half the time even in peak hours do even one of the two sides in a match have a group drop that's a generous estimate. In off-peak hours it's almost exclusively pugs. Unless you're saying that pugs are somehow organizing on teamspeak?

Dimento Graven, on 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Also keeping in mind that PGI spent some effort/cash doing at least a minor integration with C3 VOIP, so that would seem to make it fairly clear the understanding that communication and cooperation are going to be a major factor of this game.

Again, I'd love to know where you're getting these statistics! 75%? Really? I seriously doubt it, more probably somewhere less than 50%, and I'd wager somewhere well below 25%, given the number of, and size of, 'merc groups out there for this game.

See the above response.

Dimento Graven, on 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

No, it's not foolish nor self-destructive, why? Because of the minority of idiots can still raise an all to out of proportion ruckus over the fact that cooperative play will 999,999,999 times out of 1,000,000,000 beat non-coperative lone wolves all working alone. The game is simulating warfare of the 34th century and beyond. While the previous 10,000 years has taken a hit on technology, we all still got radios and no one has been hit hard enough to NOT understand that communicating with your troops is a good thing. Not allowing people to go lone wolf would eliminate that silliness. They don't want to play and cooperate with others? Fine, don't play this game. You will be constantly miserable and frustrated, better to stay away so that the vast majority of people capable of communication and cooperation can play in peace.

This response is exactly why I posted the links to confirmation bias, false consensus and cognitive bias at the begining of my post as it implies all three. I don't disagree at all that teamspeak is a great tool for those who want to use it and can use it. That's utterly irrelevant to who will use it or want to use it.

Given that, once again, group drops can't even fill enough matches to play with each other without pugs are you saying that everyone who doesn't choose to do so just shouldn't play? If that's your perception then why not just have groups (which are, again, the only people who would use teamspeak) drop in matches with other groups? Because my understanding is that they are such a small percentage of the player population that, again, they can't actually fill matches with each other.

Dimento Graven, on 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Pugs should NOT be catered to in this game, ever. This game is going to be about COMMUNITY warfare. You can't have COMMUNITY without communication and cooperation. If you don't want to join the COMMUNITY in some fashion, don't play.

Do the majority of non-8 man matches contain "pick up guys", probably yes, it can't help but be so. But are the 'majority' of "pick up guys" not also part of some 'merc group? That I don't know. I suspect only a minority are true lone wolves, refusing to find a group of people to regularly group with. You know, that's your choice, but don't expect to be catered to. Don't expect the game to be "dumbed down" so that you can stroke your epeen with lucky crits.

You want to play all by yourself, your choice, but that is NOT what this game is about.

Go reread all the info PGI has put out about it, attempt to read for comprehension.

In terms of reading for comprehension, I'd politely ask you to re-read my post and the links I posted. Given the clear bias of your position you most likely play in groups with teamspeak and thus both

A) assume that most other people do as well

and

B ) assume that if everyone else just say things as you did or did things like you did everyone would feel about it like you do.

If that were true than the world would be a different place. Political parties, religions, sects within individual religions, flavors of ice cream and an endless list of other examples show that people like and enjoy different things and enjoy things in different ways. Teamspeak, dropping with a group, playing socially, these are all examples.

If your attitude is that people who don't want to use teamspeak or drop with a group shouldn't play and should be discouraged from playing if they refuse to do so then, well, you're back to the original issue -

Why not just have groups drop with groups? Not enough of them to actually fill regular games.

Edited by MischiefSC, 27 January 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[Arthur Heath]

GET ON TEAMSPEAK...ITS A TEAM GAME.....


YOU JUST LIKE TO STOMP PUGS.....

Just try teamspeak already..........
j

Edited by Arthur Heath, 27 January 2013 - 07:07 PM.

[Wraith05]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I don't think TS is unfair but I would ask -

What is the objection to premade drops having a separate queue? Assuming there were enough players to populate it.

I won't speak for others but I know what I want out of this game:

1. Variety of players
2. Variety of mech/team builds (seeing the same 2-3 setups every game is booooooring)
3. Close matches, not necessarily wins or losses, but good fights.

My fear of a premade only queue is that my first 2 criteria would not be met. This fear is based on how the current 8 man system is already implemented. You see the same few teams and the same basic set ups, usually 3ls and DDCs.

And of course the fear you already pointed out, not enough population to make effective matchmaking viable.

[Joseph Mallan]

Greyfyl, on 27 January 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Actually this would help greatly, except for the fact that there are people that simply will not continue to play a game where they are forced into listening to some of the garbage I have heard in TS. And yes, from what I have seen, vile players in TS is the exception, not the rule. But they are there.

I do think however, that the pugging community could be quite vile on it's own. Play a game on x-box live with voice and you will quickly see why this might not be as great an idea as it first seems.

I have never heard a bad player in the ComStar TS Server! Seriously, I have only had great experiences with people who just want to have some fun and share some yuks!