260 replies to this topic

[CrashieJ]

OH LOL, just because you dont have it, doesn't mean that it's an exploit.

grow up

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

I play pretty much equally on TS and solo now. I dont feel guilty when the team I am on destroys a likely full pug group, nor do I get mad when my pug team gets rolled by a likely pre-made group. If I'm feeling like going solo and it ends up being the weekend pre-made saturated queue I sometimes call it a night early, because stomp after stomp isn't fun either but I dont get bent out of shape over it. What irks me is the ignorance and intolerance on both sides. I mean its clearly a balance problem. Its a clear advantage and it bugs me seeing exclusive pre-made players pretending it isn't, pretending its just their 'skill' that allows them to win as much as they do and not get killed as much as they do. On the other side, it patently idiotic when pug players assert that pre-mades are 'exploiting', being jerks, ruining gameplay, hurting the game, are bad people and the whole assortment of demonisations that come out of the pug camp. Mostly they are just guys that like playing with their friends, shooting the **** as they blast away at big stompy robots.
What bugs me most is that neither side seems like they would be happy to see the game support both of these playstyles fairly. People really need to grow up on this, because the casual solo player and the group/ts player are both essential experiences that the game needs to offer in a fun way to achieve any sort of long term success.

Edited by Redmond Spiderhammer, 27 January 2013 - 07:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

@Wraith05;

The second option is a new one and a very valid point. Group vs group drops are going to be min/maxed and thus effectively limit the builds you can play without feeling like you're gimping your team.

All very reasonable. Again, I want to point this out -

I'm all for teamspeak and group drops. I strongly believe that the Elo matching will resolve the bulk of the imbalance and that 'pugstomps' in the context of actual group drops dominating pug drops and not just one side absolutely rolling the other up and crushing them.

I only play pug as I'm not able to use TS. I'd be the first to say I'm not very good. At the moment I'm all the way up to a KDR of 1.08 (after hitting a low of around 0.4) and a win rate of 73.68% however. I run a K2 with 2x UAC5 and 2x LLs, not a 'cheese build'. I run into puggers who are better than me all the time, just that you get a few players down from DCs, bots or suicidal rambos and individual skill counts for less and less.

My main point however is that you need to cater to some degree to the people who don't want to join teamspeak or group drop. The Elo will do that best as it will skew matches towards players of a comparable skill. The benefits of teamspeak and dropping with groups will move the people who play that way to a tier of players similar to their own skill range. Less absolutely one-sided stomps as new players will play against new players, total solo sorts with similar skill ranges and the like.

I'd still say also building matches around group drops matching on each side if at all possible though. If only to give more of a feeling of fairness even if the realities are less complicated.

[GoldenArbiter]

Teamwork is OP. (Says the guy who relies on teamwork to win)

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Wraith05, on 27 January 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

I won't speak for others but I know what I want out of this game:

1. Variety of players
2. Variety of mech/team builds (seeing the same 2-3 setups every game is booooooring)
3. Close matches, not necessarily wins or losses, but good fights.

My fear of a premade only queue is that my first 2 criteria would not be met. This fear is based on how the current 8 man system is already implemented. You see the same few teams and the same basic set ups, usually 3ls and DDCs.

And of course the fear you already pointed out, not enough population to make effective matchmaking viable.

Those would be my exact concerns as well. Unfortunately I dont think the mech variety(or lack thereof) will be solved no matter what is done with solo/group players unless they start taking chassis and variant into account to adjust the Elo score on a per match basis.

[Grugore]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 27 January 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

I play pretty much equally on TS and solo now. I dont feel guilty when the team I am on destroys a likely full pug group, nor do I get mad when the pug team gets rolled by a likely pre-made group. If I'm feeling like going solo and it ends up being the weekend pre-made saturated queue I sometimes call it a night early, because stomp after stomp isn't fun either but I dont get bent out of shape over it. What irks me is the ignorance and intolerance on both sides. I mean its clearly a balance problem. Its a clear advantage and it bugs me seeing exclusive pre-made players pretending it isn't, pretending its just their 'skill' that allows them to win as much as they do and not get killed as much as they do. On the other side, it patently idiotic when pug players assert that pre-mades are 'exploiting', being jerks, ruining gameplay, hurting the game, are bad people and the whole assortment of demonisations that come out of the pug camp. Mostly they are just guys that like playing with their friends, shooting the **** as they blast away at big stompy robots.
What bugs me most is that neither side seems like they would be happy to see the game support both of these playstyles fairly. People really need to grow up on this, because the casual solo player and the group/ts player are both essential experiences that the game needs to offer in a fun way to achieve any sort of long term success.

The group I play with can win without using TS. We've done it before. That's because of superior skill and teamwork. Learn how to play the game.

Edited by Grugore, 27 January 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Wraith05]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

@Wraith05;

The second option is a new one and a very valid point. Group vs group drops are going to be min/maxed and thus effectively limit the builds you can play without feeling like you're gimping your team.

All very reasonable. Again, I want to point this out -

I'm all for teamspeak and group drops. I strongly believe that the Elo matching will resolve the bulk of the imbalance and that 'pugstomps' in the context of actual group drops dominating pug drops and not just one side absolutely rolling the other up and crushing them.

I only play pug as I'm not able to use TS. I'd be the first to say I'm not very good. At the moment I'm all the way up to a KDR of 1.08 (after hitting a low of around 0.4) and a win rate of 73.68% however. I run a K2 with 2x UAC5 and 2x LLs, not a 'cheese build'. I run into puggers who are better than me all the time, just that you get a few players down from DCs, bots or suicidal rambos and individual skill counts for less and less.

My main point however is that you need to cater to some degree to the people who don't want to join teamspeak or group drop. The Elo will do that best as it will skew matches towards players of a comparable skill. The benefits of teamspeak and dropping with groups will move the people who play that way to a tier of players similar to their own skill range. Less absolutely one-sided stomps as new players will play against new players, total solo sorts with similar skill ranges and the like.

I'd still say also building matches around group drops matching on each side if at all possible though. If only to give more of a feeling of fairness even if the realities are less complicated.

I fully agree with you and am hoping the ELO fixes the matter of one sided matches for us. Not optimistic about it, but hoping none the less.

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 27 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Those would be my exact concerns as well. Unfortunately I dont think the mech variety(or lack thereof) will be solved no matter what is done with solo/group players unless they start taking chassis and variant into account to adjust the Elo score on a per match basis.

In the 4 man queues I see a good variety of mechs, not all of them of course (jenners are endangered species now). but not the same 8 mech set up, or same 2 mechs over and over.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

but would that be true if you never used teamspeak? no of course it wouldn't. I play WAY better in solo matches now than I did before I played any premades, and I play even better still when I play with the same guys that I am used to. A lot of matches we hardly use TS for tactics at all.. we just BS.. call out when we've done something cool or stupid.. have some laughs. TS is a great tool and an advantage, but really pre-grouping is the imbalancing advantage. It throws off the skill levels between teams, it throws off the mech 'balance' in that players choose mechs that work best together. The test isn't how well you can do WITH your team TS or no, its how well you can do without your team. I'm not trying to say that pre-groupers aren't skilled... There are way more skilled pre-groupers than skilled pugs. Pre-grouping trains players faster. But there are plenty of purely pre-group players who are being carried by their teams and unless you aslo pug and do well you have no business using that 'L2P' BS. Even if you do pug with success.. L2P doesn't contribute anything constructive or meaningful to any conversation.

Wraith05, on 27 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I fully agree with you and am hoping the ELO fixes the matter of one sided matches for us. Not optimistic about it, but hoping none the less. In the 4 man queues I see a good variety of mechs, not all of them of course (jenners are endangered species now). but not the same 8 mech set up, or same 2 mechs over and over.

That is true.. I often feel bad for bringing my Centurion into an 8 man drop. Though I have to say, on the weekend and primetime hours when the number of pre-made 4 man drops starts to spike, the mech diversity does tend to plumet. I only see noticeably off levels of the 'chosen' builds during peak times. Playing in off hours only a few drops are saturated with ravens and ddc atlas

[Wraith05]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 27 January 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

That is true.. I often feel bad for bringing my Centurion into an 8 man drop. Though I have to say, on the weekend and primetime hours when the number of pre-made 4 man drops starts to spike, the mech diversity does tend to plumet. I only see noticeably off levels of the 'chosen' builds during peak times. Playing in off hours only a few drops are saturated with ravens and ddc atlas

Which is why I don't want to see the Pugs segregated. They add some fun randomness into the games as opposed to hardlined x y z strategies/builds.

As for the skill level of the player, it goes both ways. Groups and pugs both have good and bad players in them. But I will say it doesn't matter if you're the best mech pilot in the game. 1 vs 8 will still see you killed.

Edited by Wraith05, 27 January 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Wraith05, on 27 January 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

I don't feel it is an unfair advantage. To me an unfair advantage would be an advantage that wasn't offered to all involved, or only accessible by one side of the team.

Headsets are cheap, I found one for $20. But, plenty of young people get computers as a gift, or use a family computer, but don't have an allowance or income to buy a headset.

Additionally plenty of people 'with' a headset are not in a situation that is socially acceptable, or in a quite enough place to use their headset.

Further still plenty of people just feel awkward on it. Detracting from their enjoyment of mindlessly blowing something up maintaining a civilized ts conversation. Which isn't an excuse to call ts an exploit but a fine reason to want communication tools for those that can't or wont ts(aka text macros).

MWO doesn't come with one, and it should acknowledge those masses without one in it's game balancing.
I can understand where you guys are coming from, why don't they just do it too? Trust me, some can't.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 28 January 2013 - 03:50 AM.

[wolf74]

IF Teamspeak is a Exploit than so is the cellphone in your home, Or skype, or any other option that lets you talk to other. No LAN party for you! It's an Exploit

[Snowhawk]

Wraith05, on 27 January 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Which is why I don't want to see the Pugs segregated. They add some fun randomness into the games as opposed to hardlined x y z strategies/builds.

Aha.... what I see is....

The premades need us, the pugs and randoms, for variety, amusement, fill-ins, free wins and pugstomping. Teambased 8 vs. 8 is overpowered and lame... but 4 man groups vs. pugs is fine. In some postings I see the tendency that premades want to keep their "easy targets".
I hope we will get a better matchmaker who will try to throw premades against premades and separates the pugs.

[CrashieJ]

you know there's a COMSTAR PUBLIC TEAMSPEAK SERVER ready for pugs to clot up and use.

here's the link in big SPECIAL **** JUST FOR YOUR LAZY *** (props to Helmer)
just click the ******* pictures dumbass


http://mwomercs.com/...e-chat-servers/

Edited by gavilatius, 28 January 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[Abivard]

Teamspeak is free, several TS public servers just for MWO players are also available and free to use, You can even see developers on there and talk to them, and at times they will drop into YOUR chat to say hi or ask a question of you!

There are a couple other voice comm's out there, most are free, require little of your computer or bandwidth, A microphone and headset can be had for under $10 anywhere in the USA.

They are easy to use and a lot of people will gladly help you set it up if needed.

This is a TEAM game, not playing as a part of a team is a bad start to a match. Insisting on the games focus changing from TEAM to solo play because YOU do not want to team up is arrogant, selfish and short sighted.

[The Mecha Streisand]

Greyfyl, on 26 January 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

But yet you are against having to play against premades on the other team. How shocking.

Most rewarding matches I've played in had a 4-man on either side, filled out with PUG. It encouraged the 4-man to work harder to try to leverage the PUGs as teammates, and not just fodder. Fun.

[Snowhawk]

Abivard, on 28 January 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

This is a TEAM game....

Yes... but do you know that there are "team games" who separte the teams from the pugs/randoms.... (team arena / random arena)?? A simple improvement of the matchmaker would help both sides... the premades and the casual gamers.

[OlF]

Abivard, on 28 January 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

.....
This is a TEAM game, not playing as a part of a team is a bad start to a match. Insisting on the games focus changing from TEAM to solo play because YOU do not want to team up is arrogant, selfish and short sighted.

Funny that TEAM is defined by the use of TS and/or being in a group, set up prior to the match.

I also have problems with the concept of this game not separating groups from individual players. Even more the insisting of these groups to keep it that way.

For myself, I am used to teamspeak while playing games. But doing this in two already leaves me with not much enthusiasm to do it in a third on a regular base even if it is proclaimed as mandatory. I will rather not be forced to this, neither by the game nor the community. In the end it is my choice I know. But the defense of the actual system leaves me baffeld all the time.

Edited by OlF, 28 January 2013 - 03:33 AM.

[JuiceKeeper]

personaly i dont mind loosing but i think its sorta exploit till game will give you ingame voice chat. till that point it will allways be exploit no mather how else u want to call it. If pgi dont want to invest into good ingame voice chat i understand that but it will just harm their game. But till that point using teamspeak it gives u unfair advantage over people which dont use it. And theres no way to separate this playing groups. I rly dont understand why that C1 command capsule or how its called its not made properly so it can be used in PUG games. This will be much bigger problem when this community will have community warfare and all those nice modes and maps. If PGI wants us to use TS it HAS to be communicated with users and players. It has to be advertised on loading screen of game with buy MC or it will be allways exploit...

Edited by JuiceKeeper, 28 January 2013 - 03:36 AM.

[Jungle Rhino]

The fundamental issue here (and basically the cause of 90% of complaints) is that this game is still in Alpha - by that I mean it is no where near 'feature complete' - which is the requirement for a proper Beta.

Until these missing features get into the game (ELO, matchmaking, inbuilt comms, etc) then of course the user experience is going to be borked. Given the current state of the game I'm not at all surprised that casual gamers are feeling cheesed off - that is PGI's fault - casual gamers shouldn't even be playing the game at the moment. It should still be internal testing or possibly invite only closed testing.

But then this seems to be the way things are going with game development these days. PGI would probably never have got this project off the ground without the founders program and big cash injection to prove to their financiers that the game had the market share and long term viability.

So basically what we are seeing is the byproduct of the financial contraints on AAA game development these days. Particularly for a studio with no previous big sellers to inspire confidence.

Edited by Jungle Rhino, 28 January 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Bluescuba]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Confirmation Bias

False Consensus

Cognitive Bias

Three concepts that seem absolutely required to post on this forum.

Most people who play MWO or any other game for that matter do not want to use something like TeamSpeak. Maybe it's preference, maybe it's necessity, the reason is irrelevant. Some people do use TeamSpeak. Maybe it's preference, maybe it's comfort level, the reason is irrelevant.

Teamspeak has a lot to offer in this sort of game both in terms of enjoyment and tactical advantage. That just is what it is. It's not bad nor is it something that needs 'nerfed'. In some ways it's comparable to 3rd person view, it's a way to play the game that comes down to personal preference but also impacts the 'fairness' of the game. If you don't like to play in the way that offers the most benefit you can either play the game in a way you don't enjoy or you can play at a disadvantage.

If some means of balancing premades vs pugs isn't developed it will effectively disenfranchise over 75% of the people who play the game. Of that greater than 75% it's not unreasonable to assume many of them will lose interest because of it. Fortunately there is a means of balancing it in the works, if that doesn't resolve it something else will need to.

TS/grouping is an advantage that only a small minority of people take advantage of, but for them it adds a lot to the game. It's great, it should stay obviously and has a lot to offer to the game. However it would be foolish and self-destructive to cater only to that style of play. Currently you can't even fill matches with group/TS only players. That alone should be enough reason to approve of balancing it.

Then again I've yet to really see anyone argue against balancing grouped vs pug players - who is still arguing against balancing group drops with pugs?

You have no proof zero zilch nada for the statements that you make. Unless you do... then let us see the numbers Mr 61 posts.

Bah this guy is just an agitator.

Edited by Bluescuba, 28 January 2013 - 04:53 AM.