260 replies to this topic

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Dmitri Valenov, on 26 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

So I was running some matches this morning with a good bunch of guys on the Comstar Relay TS server, and we drop in to this match in River city: Night. There is some great brawling going on in the upper city and my poor Centurion is getting hit pretty hard. We manage to pull it together and take out all but one of the other team with only 3 losses and one guy starts talking about "Premade BS".

Well, we tell him that we are just 4 guys that joined up on a free TS server at random and he was welcome to do the same. So then he starts spouting that using a third party service like TS is an exploit.

An Exploit?!? Really? In that case, every Call of Duty, Battlefield 3, Counterstrike, and Team Fortress player is an exploiter. Yet nobody bats an eye when they get owned by a coordinated team in those games. Why then, is it an exploit in MWO?

/sigh

Oh well, guess I'll just have to live with the fact that I actually want a coordinated team experience in a team based multiplayer game.

Dmitri

P.S. Flame away forum warriors

for this TS/Multiplay Hating People is better ,the played only Single player games or ken&Barbie

[Joseph Mallan]

Moonsavage, on 26 January 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Nice troll post.

People using TS while others aren't have an advantage over them.
It's not an exploit, since it's allowed by the game.

it's just

NOT VERY SPORTING.

Cool. I'm not playing a sport game. I'm playing a combat game. And war isn't supposed to be "fair".

[Taizan]

It's not an exploit, just like playing with very low ping or very good frame rate isn't an exploit. It's a tremendous advantage though because the in-game VOIP solution is laughable.

[Team Leader]

Taizan, on 26 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's not an exploit, just like playing with very low ping or very good frame rate isn't an exploit. It's a tremendous advantage though because the in-game nothing solution is laughable.

Fixed

[PANZERBUNNY]

Greyfyl, on 26 January 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

This is exactly what I have been saying for months. For an online pvp only game, a good matchmaking system should have been priority one.



But yet you are against having to play against premades on the other team. How shocking.

I also added a counter argument that it's the same as people choosing to use only stock variants against fully custom rigs, but you chose to ignore that response, because it doesn't support your argument.

You would make a good politician and by good I mean a good target.

[Mk1Cursed]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 January 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Cool. I'm not playing a sport game. I'm playing a combat game. And war isn't supposed to be "fair".

Hilairious. Cycling isn't a sport either, it's WAR! and not supposed to be fair etc etc.. dribble dribble.

[MischiefSC]

Seriously. I've said this before and will keep bringing it up every time I post.

Every single game I play for at this point close to 250 games, I start by asking 'Any premades who want to take the lead?' If not, I make a simple tactical suggetion or someone else does and we try to play with a plan. I have an old cable bill I'm keeping hashmarks on for every time I get a 'yes' response from premades or when the other side either annouces they are premade or it's pretty obvious (3L twins + stalker missileboat twins, 3x 3Ls and 2Ds, clear complementary builds).

Teamspeak isn't the advantage. Experience is. Having a premade just means 4 people on one side who have some sort of understanding of how mechs work together in MWO. Otherwise your odds are good that at least 2 or 3 of your team will wander off alone and die, or afk, or disco right after start, turning it into an 8 on 5 bloodbath.

Peak hours there's only one premade (total between both sides) about 1/2 of the time. Off peak hours it's closer to 1 in 8. Obviously it's impossible to know when the other team has premades on it but that's extrapolated from how often someone on my team is a premade.

The difference for stats for an individual player though are larger since the odds of a premade on your team is 1 in 1 if you're dropping premade, where as even at peak times the odds of a premade on your side is only 1/4. Hence PUGing in peak times especially can put you at a statistical disadvantage. The times I get absolutely pugstomped by a premade 4x or even what's clearly 2 x 4x is less than 1 out of 16 games if I play off-peak. It happens, it's clearly pretty cheap, but whatever. It's uncommon and the ELO will fix it.

However, my team has absolutely rolled over enemy premades before with nothing but pugs or conversely get absolutely stomped by a skilled pug group when we had a premade with us. I'll take skilled puggers over premade matched-mechs every single time. These are people who win by honing their aim, skill and technique. Not by counting on someone else to pick up their slack or on missileboating. I've been on an 8 man skilled pug team of steel-balled brawling death that just ***** a clearly premade missileboat team until we got tired of the noises they made, then called their mommy and made her listend to them cry while we did inappropriate things to their little babies.

It's just far more rare to end up in a group of 8 competent puggers when you pug. Generally at least 3 of your team are too new or too poorly socialized to fight as a team, so you get split up and killed. It's not teamspeak, it's that TS works to organize players by approximate experience. Newbies and antisocial Rambo suiciders don't do TS, so they end up more statistically numerous on the pug-only teams.

By the way, I've only encountered someone being a jerk in chat once. He was in a premade and was talking trash about how easy pugstomping was. Jerks are just jerks. Doesn't matter how they play, fortunately you're not likely to have to put up with them again.

[PANZERBUNNY]

They have made this game as FAIR as they possibly can.

Heck, we'll even get buckets of fair when the Clans drop.

If people can't manage to accept or join TS so it can be more FAIR for them, what can you do for them? Like how can you REALLY help these mongrels?

They don't WANT to interact with people. I get that. The reality is that at this time, if you want an "equal" playing field you must until they can send your gaming type off to a concentration camp que to keep you away from everyone else playing this game.

Which is funny, because I imagine most people who are given their own zoo to play in, with no comms or bad 2,3 or 4 man teams will get bored with the game, because they aren't being challenged.

If getting your faces blown off by coordinated Ac 20 isn't enough to get people on comms, I don't know what will.

[Henchman 24]

Sorry guys, but Bunny has this right.

I'd have to call myself somewhat anti-social in nature, and even I broke down and checked out the Comstar channels.

You know what? It was worth it. For many reasons, not just the tactical coordination of it. Look, the fact stands that this game always needed and always will need integrated voice coms, it's coming™.

In the meantime, some nice community folks have born the burden of running channels for FREE for the very purpose of providing an interim solution. If you choose not to take advantage of it...it's your fault.

Is it an advantage? Sure is. Is it an exploit(no need to quote it, it's plain and simple)...No it's not, there's no taking advantage of bugs, holes, code variations, external game altering products, etc. It merely fills an existing gap that needs desperate attention.

It's public, it's free, it's there for you to have fun and hopefully have the best experience you can. I also realize not every player will come here and read the forums to know. For that I can only say, I'm sorry, f*n thing is in beta..it's not life's fault if you don't R.T.F.M.

How about...instead of taking the time to post claims of it being OP or whatever...use that time to download it and use it. It's not hard, not even by a stretch of the imagination, not for most gamers at least.

I still pug it to grind in between things I'm doing here and there, and you know, if you stick to basics...and your team isn't completely comprised of morons, then I've seen communication-less games that are loads of fun and work like clockwork. I think the perception of voice comms being a 'massive' advantage are colored by the lack of skill/experience based matchmaking honestly.

Edited by Henchman 24, 26 January 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Yes, well no of course not. It is an unfair advantage absolutely. But an exploit is going against the game developers intentions, and this game was made with this tool in mind.

The problem needs to be looked at more holistically.

The developers need to design with people whom can't use this tool in mind as well. For the size of the target audience will include people that don't have a mic and/or can't be talking to their computer some or all of the time.

Either make tools for these people(many suggestions have been made like pre text macros) or give them the ability to fight themselves(though I don't see how to avoid exploit of this and that is truely what it would be).

For you the best thing you can do is come to terms with, yes you have an unfair advantage, are you ok with that?

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 26 January 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[Ragor]

Short story about a real life friend of mine:

Let's call him 'Steve'.

Steve was a keen TF2 player. I always hated TF2 so I never played with him.
At some point when he had a beer in the evening he was complaining about 'TS coordinated teams breaking TF2, killing all the fun blah blah.'

My reply was simply 'why don't you just get in contact with other players you see regurlarly on the servers?' - 'No need to do, it works as well without'. - 'So what are you complaining about.?'

Those days I was a MWLL nerd, always wanted to get him playing it as well. At some point he tried it out himself.
'MWLL sucks. It is a great game but the community is so BS. Everybody is connected via voip and have their unfair advantage. I hate it.'

I gave up.

One evening he visited me at my place, drinking beer ect.

At some point I just stood up, started MWLL, started TS, logged into my units channel and told them that it isn't me who is just playing.

And forced Steve to sit down an play and pushed my headset onto his ears.
'Don't need it, no need to talk with others. Ingame chat is all I need to...' - '****. Don't talk, play your game, listen to them just to know what they are doing.'

After ~20min of gaming & listening he himself said 'engaging target Bravo, MadCat C'
Reply from my unit was not 'who is talking?' or 'nice for you' or 'who cares'. This was what he expected.

It was just 'acknowledged', 'ten four', 'assisting', 'closing in for support', 'LRM on their way' and one 'sorry, rtb, rearm'.

-> Afterwards Steve started to talk like intended.
Around one hour later we dropped gaming and focussed more on the beer.
Steve still was impressed. He claimed he just had one of the best gaming experiences ever.

Needless to say that he afterwards used his headset not only for skyping with his girlfriend anymore like before.


What I took out of it:
Many people, no matter what they do or behave in real life, have an issue getting into 'personal' contact with random people in games. The reasons why they behave that way may differ and are not on me to call out.
And recalling my own behaviour for the very first time using voip ('99, Delta Force 1, using Roger Wilco): OMG - but it got me hooked.

Edited by Ragor, 26 January 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Dirus Nigh]

While the person the OP is talking about was letting his frustration get the best of him. The point in a technical sense is correct.

People are using 3rd party programs to gain an ability that the core game of MWO does not provide. This at a very basic level is the same thing as using a hack or 3rd party add on such as the ones used with WoW.

I in no way believe using a voice program is cheating. Nor am I saying that voice software should not be used. Hacks and add ons exploit the game or undermine it. Voice programs are tools players use to enhance communication and thus a better community.

I do think that MWO needs to provide an integrated voice communications system for its players. Players should not have to rely on 3rd party voice systems in order to fully enjoy the game. Voice communications should be apart of the game. This would not only give pig up groups the ability to coordinate in game, but help strengthen the community as a whole.

Player groups if they chose could still use 3rd party voice. Those programs are better suited for merc units/guilds/clans to organize themselves. The option to opt out of using integrated voice is not unreasonable.

You can have the most robust match making system ever created. It will never replace the ability to communicate easily and clearly with other players.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 26 January 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Kaboodle]

Idk, I understand where they're coming from. It's not an exploit per-se.....but using a third party program, no matter how free (since in many games you can download aimbot hacks or other things for free) to get an in-game advantage which cannot be had without said program, is "unfair". the "It's free and so easy to get" comment is a justification, but not really a good argument since you're basically saying "Use it or stop whining" and you shouldn't need to use a third party program, to be on equal footing with other players. The whining is serving a purpose to push for an in-game solution sooner rather than later (hopefully).

Disclaimer: I PUG or duo without voice comms exclusively (Even though I have Vent/TS/Mumble installed) and honestly don't have that many problems with premades. My main concern atm is that even with some counters, Matchmaking isn't taking into account ECM. I'm fine with the implementation, just give us equal amounts of ECM per team. Even a 1 mech difference can change the game dramatically if either side uses LRMs in any number.

[Ragor]

Dirus Nigh, on 26 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

While the person the OP is talking about was letting his frustration get the best of him. The point in a technical sense is correct.

People are using 3rd party programs to gain an ability that the core game of MWO does not provide. This at a very basic level is the same thing as using a hack or 3rd party add on such as the ones used with WoW.

I in no way believe using a voice program is cheating. Nor am I saying that voice software should not be used. Hacks and add ons exploit the game or undermine it. Voice programs are tools players use to enhance communication and thus a better community.

I do think that MWO needs to provide an integrated voice communications system for its players. Players should not have to rely on 3rd party voice systems in order to fully enjoy the game. Voice communications should be apart of the game. This would not only give pig up groups the ability to coordinate in game, but help strengthen the community as a whole.

Player groups if they chose could still use 3rd party voice. Those programs are better suited for merc units/guilds/clans to organize themselves. The option to opt out of using integrated voice is not unreasonable.

You can have the most robust match making system ever created. It will never replace the ability to communicate easily and clearly with other players.

QFT.

Just adding:
People playing as premade but sitting in the same room aren't to be called cheaters as well.
Voip is just like a shared flat in a bigger scale. Period.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mk1Cursed, on 26 January 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Hilairious. Cycling isn't a sport either, it's WAR! and not supposed to be fair etc etc.. dribble dribble.

Cycling is a sport as would be Track and field. Try again sir.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Ragor, on 26 January 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Short story about a real life friend of mine:

Let's call him 'Steve'.

Steve was a keen TF2 player. I always hated TF2 so I never played with him.
At some point when he had a beer in the evening he was complaining about 'TS coordinated teams breaking TF2, killing all the fun blah blah.'

My reply was simply 'why don't you just get in contact with other players you see regurlarly on the servers?' - 'No need to do, it works as well without'. - 'So what are you complaining about.?'

Those days I was a MWLL nerd, always wanted to get him playing it as well. At some point he tried it out himself.
'MWLL sucks. It is a great game but the community is so BS. Everybody is connected via voip and have their unfair advantage. I hate it.'

I gave up.

One evening he visited me at my place, drinking beer ect.

At some point I just stood up, started MWLL, started TS, logged into my units channel and told them that it isn't me who is just playing.

And forced Steve to sit down an play and pushed my headset onto his ears.
'Don't need it, no need to talk with others. Ingame chat is all I need to...' - '****. Don't talk, play your game, listen to them just to know what they are doing.'

After ~20min of gaming & listening he himself said 'engaging target Bravo, MadCat C'
Reply from my unit was not 'who is talking?' or 'nice for you' or 'who cares'. This was what he expected.

It was just 'acknowledged', 'ten four', 'assisting', 'closing in for support', 'LRM on their way' and one 'sorry, rtb, rearm'.

-> Afterwards Steve started to talk like intended.
Around one hour later we dropped gaming and focussed more on the beer.
Steve still was impressed. He claimed he just had one of the best gaming experiences ever.

Needless to say that he afterwards used his headset not only for skyping with his girlfriend anymore like before.


What I took out of it:
Many people, no matter what they do or behave in real life, have an issue getting into 'personal' contact with random people in games. The reasons why they behave that way may differ and are not on me to call out.
And recalling my own behaviour for the very first time using voip ('99, Delta Force 1, using Roger Wilco): OMG - but it got me hooked.

Many people are scared of learning.

Ego comes into that a fair bit.

They have their comfort zones and would rather not deviate from it.


Also, game was in a VERY short development cycle to get it out and to us to play. If it had another year or two MAYBE they would have their own in game way to communicate, but lets be honest, most games don't have very good built in comms.

SO, would you rather have PGI waste time, burning through LOTS of cash just so "Lazy Johnny afraid to DL TS" can talk with his team mates or do we use the well established means of finding play mates for our little game of mech pew pew?

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 26 January 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Thirdstar]

TS isn't an exploit but this is most certainly a troll thread.

[PANZERBUNNY]

For those new people who dive into the game without reading the forums, they WILL ask in game with the chat and they'll be directed to the forums. (At the very least. Some overly kind Mechwarrior may even drop the channel info and save them the 3 minutes it would take to find on their own.)

For the first month of Closed Beta I didn't even know there were voice comms up. I got bored pretty quick and someone was like "Get on voice comms".

So I went and searched out the info.

We're either talking about incredibly distracted, lazy, sketched out people who are terrified of human contact in any form or people who are stubborn beyond belief and don't react well to direction or being taught by those who have more knowledge of the game than them.

There's that terrible ego again. It gets in the way of EVERYTHING! (Except holding the world hostage through various banking institutions. Ego works well for corrupt banksters.)

Thirdstar, on 26 January 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

TS isn't an exploit but this is most certainly a troll thread.

It gives us something to do.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 26 January 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Thirdstar]

PANZERBUNNY, on 26 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

We're either talking about incredibly distracted, lazy, sketched out people who are terrified of human contact in any form or people who are stubborn beyond belief and don't react well to direction or being taught by those who have more knowledge of the game than ..…
do.

They could have a baby in the house.
A spouse who dislike it when you yell over a mic.
Their playtime could be fragmented.
They might not speak English fluently.
And finally, they may not take this game about stompy, shooty, robots as seriously as you do.

[Dmitri Valenov]

Thirdstar, on 26 January 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

They could have a baby in the house.
A spouse who dislike it when you yell over a mic.
Their playtime could be fragmented.
They might not speak English fluently.
And finally, they may not take this game about stompy, shooty, robots as seriously as you do.

There are non-English speaking servers as well. And no, this is not a troll thread I was just curious about why someone would think that talking with 3 other people whom I had never played with before was an exploit.

Your other reasons do make sense though, so I will concede to not using comms on those points