70 replies to this topic

[roflplanes]

HiplyRustic, on 26 January 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Having said that, I don't really care what apologist-based definition for Open Beta someone dredges up to support their position. When a game goes to Open Beta it is being marketed to the masses. When it goes to Open Beta and markets RMT products, it is getting perilously close to a commercial launch that is ducking review sites based on a technicality.

I honestly didn't dredge anything up, that's the way the cycle goes. They've just (I believe intentionally) mislabeled their product to appeal to a larger target market. Look at Minecraft, for example. When it was in it's alpha stages, people were hesitant at best to give it a shot with their hard-earned cash. When it transitioned into beta and finally a marketable finished product, people jumped on board! The game mechanics didn't change drastically between releases, so people COULD have enjoyed the alpha or beta releases just as much as the finished product. People just hear that it's a brand new piece of software in it's alpha stages and are extremely wary of throwing their money at it before they see any promise in the franchise.

The last statement in this quote was (seemingly) entirely true. And yes, that's a shady answer. But it is what it is, and I can't really blame them for covering their own butts.

Edited by roflplanes, 26 January 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[HiplyRustic]

roflplanes, on 26 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

I honestly didn't dredge anything up, that's the way the cycle goes. They've just (I believe intentionally) mislabeled their product to appeal to a larger target market.

I didn't mean you, rofl...I meant the posters I've seen delivering creative new definitions for "Open Beta" every time it's pointed out what that term means.

[Codejack]

Castigatus, on 26 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Ravn is right Codejack. Even if you had any good arguements, which you dont because all you do is spew vitriol, the sheer unpleasantness of your tone is such that they will simply ignore it rather than go through the hardship of trying to sift any useful contributions from the torrent of bile and insults. Just because you've given up on being polite doesn't mean they have any more obligation to listen to you after all. As for your resolve to get the devs fired thats just unbelievebly spiteful not to mention incredibly childish.

Go back and read my post history. I spent months being a cheerleader for all of the goofy and hare-brained schemes they came up with. I rolled with the fastbacks and ran the streakcats because they were the only things that Jenners were afraid of and stayed positive the entire time.

Then we got ECM and.... well, we're back to Ravn's poop metaphor. 2 months of this ****, and they won't even discuss making changes. Now you're standing here telling me that's it's raining while they're peeing on us.

You want legitimate arguments? How about the fact that it removes the implicit hazard of carrying only short-ranged weapons, which would have been bad enough had it been applied to a system that had been well-balanced before, which this game most certainly was not?

How about the fact that premade teams on 3rd party voice comms can communicate around ECM while PUGs cannot?

How about imagining PGI making a hero Catapult, a 80kph heavy with 4 streaks, 1 LRM10, TAG and ECM (and if you think that unlikely, go look at the H2 or K5 variants)?

How about the fact that it just makes the game less fun? The worst of it is when 2 ECM-covered groups go opposite ways and it's just a race to see who caps the fastest.

No, ECM could have been a lot of fun if it weren't so completely out of proportion, but just the fact that they consider it acceptable as it is completely removed my previous faith in their ability to produce a good game; I only mention firing people because anyone who worked for me and displayed such terrible decision-making ability would be on Careerbuilder the same afternoon.

[Xyroc]

Oh the day when people on the internet will actually communicate as if they where in front of the person ... probably as great of a chance as major corporations treating all their employees fairly ...

[Beo Vulf]

Negativity isn't bad if you offer something constructive to go with it. But some people get upset if you say anything about the problems the game has. It doesn't matter if you give examples, or suggestions it's automatically trashing PGI in their eyes. Your post was one of the good ones unfortunately the trolls spotted it first.

[Ravn]

I do love poop metaphors.

[Castigatus]

Codejack, on 26 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Go back and read my post history. I spent months being a cheerleader for all of the goofy and hare-brained schemes they came up with. I rolled with the fastbacks and ran the streakcats because they were the only things that Jenners were afraid of and stayed positive the entire time.

Then we got ECM and.... well, we're back to Ravn's poop metaphor. 2 months of this ****, and they won't even discuss making changes. Now you're standing here telling me that's it's raining while they're peeing on us.

You want legitimate arguments? How about the fact that it removes the implicit hazard of carrying only short-ranged weapons, which would have been bad enough had it been applied to a system that had been well-balanced before, which this game most certainly was not?

How about the fact that premade teams on 3rd party voice comms can communicate around ECM while PUGs cannot?

How about imagining PGI making a hero Catapult, a 80kph heavy with 4 streaks, 1 LRM10, TAG and ECM (and if you think that unlikely, go look at the H2 or K5 variants)?

How about the fact that it just makes the game less fun? The worst of it is when 2 ECM-covered groups go opposite ways and it's just a race to see who caps the fastest.

No, ECM could have been a lot of fun if it weren't so completely out of proportion, but just the fact that they consider it acceptable as it is completely removed my previous faith in their ability to produce a good game; I only mention firing people because anyone who worked for me and displayed such terrible decision-making ability would be on Careerbuilder the same afternoon.

So basiclly this boils down to you being pissed off about ECM, fair enough but you should just be honest about it. Hyperbole serves no purpose, especially if you want to try and make a decent point.

Speaking of points lets go through the ones you listed.

ECM imperfectly removes precisely one of the long range weapon options available to mechwarriors, want me to list the others? You also seem to be ignoring the fact it has zero effect on directfire weapons no matter what range its used at and that there is a simple and easily used counter in TAG (now NARC on the other hand is still totally borked but hey we arent talking about that).

As for your voice comm arguement theres plenty of free and publicly accesible voice comm servers for PUGs in this game, go find one and oh look, now your 'problem' is gone. Hell theres even a list of them on this very forum if you cant be bothered to search for them yourself.

Now onto your hero mech. Much as you may think otherwise PGI are not stupid. they know how the system works and they have been very very careful to ensure the hero mechs have been balanced both gameplaywise and alongside the other varients available for each chassis. I dont see them breaking that mould any time soon given how theyve done on the hero mechs so far.

As for your final point you seem to be confusing a subjective idea with solid fact. What makes a game fun is different for every player and I have to admit the introduction of ECM made virtually no difference to the way I play other than making me pay more attention to spotting on the screen rather than letting my sensors do it for me.

You might want to look at that final sentence of yours as well because it kind of undermines your arguement that you arent pushing to get them fired when you say that if you were in charge they would have been. Perhaps I'm being uncharitable in my reading of that though.

[Codejack]

How many logical contortions can you go through? You're just being silly, now.

Non-guided long range weapons cannot be counted on to hit with the netcode as bad as it is, and I am not expecting any improvements. Saying that TAG counters ECM is just laughable.

Voice comms for PUGs? What are you smoking? Even assuming that anyone else in your PUG is likely to have it installed, the chances of you having the same one are slim, and then you'd have to spend the first 2 minutes of the match getting on the same channel, by which time the enemy has killed you.

I said "imagine" the hero mech; if PGI isn't stupid, explain why 80% of the forum thinks that ECM hurt the game, yet they won't even talk about changing it. Something is going to come along with ECM and lots of missile slots, or else the game is just arbitrarily broken, and nobody will play that.

Again, 80% of players think that ECM made the game less fun; you are in the minority, here.

[Taemien]

The problem with today's online games is the community is chock filled with the new generation of gamer. They grow up in a NA or EU entitlement based society where they are coddled by their parents until their mid 20s and then coddled by their society (peers, parents, or governments) from then on.

Since they have no personal responsibility (the concept is in fact entirely alien to them), they look to others to fix their problem. First they go whine on the forums to get PGI to change things. Failing that they go after their peers to get them to conform (calling raven pilots exploiters for example).

What can be done about this? Peer pressure works. Make sure in your units that your foster good sportsmanship and personal responsibility and shun out those that tend to want to whine first before trying to improve themselves.

But it needs to go further than this. Outside the game, shun family, friends, co-workers, and even strangers who have these entitlement oriented mindsets. Basically anyone who doesn't want to work for something is probably in this category. Its not an easy process, but it can work if enough people do it.

Once these players figure out its no longer 'cool' to whine and complain. And to just get better and play competitively, then they'll conform.

I do this all myself. For example, I have a cousin who is just a waste of air. He's on SSI and has no desire to ever work. Claiming bi-polar (its fake), he gets 750 a month to sit on his arse all day long. I do not associate with him, or even acknowledge him.

On the flipside, there is a guy that my group of friends and I play Pathfinder and BattleTech with. He has a mental handicap due to a head injury. It prevents him from reading or doing arithmetic (he was able to do such before the injury). However even though he's lost access to the parts of his mind that allow him to function at 100%, he still retained his hard working work ethic and still works as best he can within his limitations. We have no issues allowing him into our gaming groups and actually admire him for his tenacity.

[BerryChunks]

Things dont improve if people dont complain.

Your assertions are laughably wrong, Taemin. Sure, there are the various examples of coddling parents and "peers", but most people who have been "coddled" are considered losers by the majority of population.

Edited by BerryChunks, 27 January 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[Codejack]

Good idea, Taemien; I'm officially shunning you, as of now.

[Zolaz]

I like PGI, I gave them money and I enjoy the product that they are providing. I feel like they are responsive to the community and have a similar love of Battletech and Mechwarrior that I have. The internet just brings out the QQ and Angst in people.

People just have a hard time adapting. When they are unhappy they will generally go out and complain about it instead of trying to do something themselves. Because, that is easier than doing something themselves.

If you want to be an Elite Mechpilot follow in the footsteps of other Elite Mechpilots. Dont try and reinvent the wheel, follow their path. So go out and find someone who can play the game and then learn from them. That can be a corp, a TS group or someone you saw do something awe inspiring in a game.

If you want to feel better about MWO then be proactive. You only get angsty sitting around complaining instead of doing something. Complainers dont have plans, they have excuses.

[Codejack]

Zol, this isn't about "not being able to adapt;" I can run a Trollmando with the best of them.

This is about the fact that it makes the game not fun.

[Novakaine]

Only time will tell.
I'm all for legitimate concerns and all the whining has to stop.
I'm just concerned that this will indeed become an online COD.
Which will ruin the game.
In my humble opinion.
Do I hate it in is present state?
Yes.
Will I still play?
Oh hell yeah who can resist giant battlemechs rumbling across the battlefield.
As of now it's just a giant pew pew like any other pew pew FPS.
I think when they start the community warfare aspects it will truly start to shine.
But for now its plain old vanilla pudding and I wanted the tapioca.
And on a side note I want my joystick support!
Stop this pew pew madness before its too late!
Perkins!!!!!

[roflplanes]

Codejack, on 27 January 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Zol, this isn't about "not being able to adapt;" I can run a Trollmando with the best of them.

This is about the fact that it makes the game not fun.

See, the very fact that you automatically stereotype the "Trollmando" is the wrong answer. I watched some guy die then spend ALL MATCH today trash talking how little skill you must have to run streaks on a light. He was furious about it. I say he was just a n00b and a sore loser. I've been fragged by streak Cats, streak Ravens, streak Commandos, Splatapaults, LRM boats, gauss Kittys, and even the occasional brawler light. Guess what, it happens. It doesn't make MW:O any "less fun" than the AWP does Counter Strike or the auto-sniper does CoD. They're specialized weapons/builds that require a specialized skill set to run successfully. If you can't learn to overcome them, that's a personal problem. With every game in the world, there's always SOME feature that all the newbies always say is just "too powerful" so that it sucks all the fun out of the game. If that were true, however, no one would EVER run anything else out of the pure necessity of remaining competitive.

Instead of crying about how they're broken, however, I simply overcome and adapt my tactics and builds to counteract their own tactics. I don't rage quit because I can't compensate. That's the fundamental difference between the two distinct groups of people playing MW:O today.

Edited by roflplanes, 27 January 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Codejack, on 27 January 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Zol, this isn't about "not being able to adapt;" I can run a Trollmando with the best of them.

This is about the fact that it makes the game not fun.

No idea what you Mean? I have killed plenty of ... Trollmandos? I killed ECM Ravens, Warp drive Jenners, SRM Cats and the rest. I haven't come across a build I cannot beat. Not all the time mind you but enough times to know that the build is fine, it just needs respected and handled with alacrity. I use no Streaks, I pack SRMs on 3 of four builds and I have one ECM ride. My Mechs use a mix of all weapon systems and I have fun killing every Mech in the game. Not one chassis am I ever unable to beat sometimes.

[Castigatus]

Codejack, on 27 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

How many logical contortions can you go through? You're just being silly, now.

Non-guided long range weapons cannot be counted on to hit with the netcode as bad as it is, and I am not expecting any improvements. Saying that TAG counters ECM is just laughable.

Voice comms for PUGs? What are you smoking? Even assuming that anyone else in your PUG is likely to have it installed, the chances of you having the same one are slim, and then you'd have to spend the first 2 minutes of the match getting on the same channel, by which time the enemy has killed you.

I said "imagine" the hero mech; if PGI isn't stupid, explain why 80% of the forum thinks that ECM hurt the game, yet they won't even talk about changing it. Something is going to come along with ECM and lots of missile slots, or else the game is just arbitrarily broken, and nobody will play that.

Again, 80% of players think that ECM made the game less fun; you are in the minority, here.

Now who's going through logical contortions? Here's a hint for you, 80% of forum users != 80% of players and that's doing you the courtesy of assuming you haven't pulled those stats out of your *** in the first place. On ECM, I guessed you missed the last Command chair post, you know the one where they say it will be looked at and tweaked if required along with introducing additional counters. If actually paying attention to what the developers are saying makes me a minority its one I'm happy to be in.

Now that's out of the way again I'll address the rest in order.

The netcode has been improving with every patch, stop blaming it for your own lack of ability. People have been slaughtering the supposedly invincible lights ever since they learned how to lead a damn target so honestly, suck less.

As for your assertation about TAG, if its so bad why have the only adaptions most LRM boats had to make to stay in the game been to add a TAG to their build and learn how to shoot at ground points.

Voice comm wise its simple, you arent going to be in a PUG if you use voice comms because by their very nature it promotes forming a premade so we actually agree there, I apologise for not explaining myself better on that point.

Your whole hero mech idea is just an excuse to bash PGI for something they havent even done yet based off the fact they did something you disliked before, which to be blunt is ******* stupid. If you must criticise them make it for something they've actually done, not some stupid thought exercise only you know the details of.

[Taemien]

Codejack, on 27 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

How many logical contortions can you go through? You're just being silly, now.

Non-guided long range weapons cannot be counted on to hit with the netcode as bad as it is, and I am not expecting any improvements. Saying that TAG counters ECM is just laughable.

Voice comms for PUGs? What are you smoking? Even assuming that anyone else in your PUG is likely to have it installed, the chances of you having the same one are slim, and then you'd have to spend the first 2 minutes of the match getting on the same channel, by which time the enemy has killed you.

I said "imagine" the hero mech; if PGI isn't stupid, explain why 80% of the forum thinks that ECM hurt the game, yet they won't even talk about changing it. Something is going to come along with ECM and lots of missile slots, or else the game is just arbitrarily broken, and nobody will play that.

Again, 80% of players think that ECM made the game less fun; you are in the minority, here.

The funny thing, the minority are the people who actually excel at this game. The rest just are underpar. That much is evident by the amount of whines and complaints on these forums. You can always tell who the crappy players are. They whine on the forums. These players are ones units should avoid because they will be Untrainable and uncoordinated and will REFUSE to get any better.

I've seen some of these players ingame as well. They barely get over 100 damage and blame a premade for it. They refuse to use TS, they refuse to twist their torso to spread damage, they refuse to focus fire targets, they run off after lone lights to get ambushed, they use gimped configs like the Gausspult, they don't even understand what ECM does when they complain about it (I swear you think that they believe ECM increases streak damage or something), they refuse to lag shoot, and just whine and cry about things without learning how to counter them or just actually shooting their damn target to kill it.

I'm perfectly fine with PUG stomping the crap out of them. Whether I'm solo, duo, or three to four manning it. If I can get at least one or two of them to rage quit out of this game, I'm helping MWO as a whole. We do not need these players in MWO. In fact it would be best for online gaming on a whole if they just found a different hobby entirely.

[roflplanes]

Taemien, on 28 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

gimped configs like the Gausspult

True story and good post except for this ^^

Just for the record, I regularly score >= 300 damage in my gauss kitty. It's only a gimpy build in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it (most PUG gamers, granted) or doesn't have the rig and ping to use it effectively.

[Vassago Rain]

A blo blo blo.