25 replies to this topic

[Tombstoner]

In your opinion when does good strategy become exploitation either with terrain, mech type or weapon load out?

[LaznAzn]

Exploitation, in my opinion, is to use a feature in a way that was not intended by developers.
A legitimate tactic, again in my opinion, is to use a feature in a way that developers intended.
Both will net you an "unfair" advantage but only one was intended to occur.
An example of the former could be a way to move faster than you normally could by using a quirk in the physics engine.
An example of the latter could be using jumpjets to DFA another mech.

Though that's assuming DFA is intended be in this game.
Oh I guess I should add that sometimes an exploit will become a legitimate tactic if developers accept it as such. Sometimes unintended or novel strategies are cool and enhance the game.

Edited by LaznAzn, 25 May 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

If you tactically deploy units on terrain that allows them to fight at peak effectiveness, that's good strategy.

If you find a broken section of terrain on a map (say, a rock outcropping) that you can shoot through with a certain type of weapon while remaining totally protected from return fire, that would be an exploit which should be reported for a fix rather than farmed for free kills.

If certain weapon/mech combinations are disproportionately successful in combat, that's a balance issue for the dev team to address.

[Purgatus]

An exploit cannot be countered.

A tactic can.

[Acer Lerxt]

or another example:

strategem: finding and using a small (intended) opening in a wall to shoot at opposing targets through
exploit: finding and using a spot in a seemingly solid wall that allows shots to pass through at opposing targets

common sense usually rules the day. If you can say "even if a Dev/CSR was standing right next to me watching me play, I'd feel fine doing this." you're probably in good shape.

[Juiced]

explotation is using a game feature or design (in a manner that is not intentional) to create an unfair advantage (as others have said shoot through a hill)

strategy is having a better plan, executing that plan better, and adapting to changes better.

[Sassori]

Simply put: An Exploit is cheating. If you're firing through a solid barrier. That is cheating. If you can find a position where you cannot take damage, even when you should, that is cheating. These are exploits.

Strategy is simply a battle plan. A Strategy can include exploits, they are not mutually exclusive in that respect. However, strategy in itself is not inherently an exploit.

[PANZERBUNNY]

What is intended by game design and what is a loop hole or oversight.

[Tombstoner]

Terrain has been explained and others touched upon.

What about a lance composed of 90% LRM’s .
Presumably this issue would be address in beta with game balance.

What about using graphically larger mechs as shields.
Am I exploiting the hit box or is it good strategy?

Edited by Tombstoner, 25 May 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Purgatus]

Tombstoner, on 25 May 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Terrain has been explained and others touched upon.

What about a lance composed of 90% LRM’s .
Presumably this issue would be address in beta with game balance.

If balanced well, then range is its problem. A group of fast close range fighters would tear up this squad. That's where tactics come into play.

[LaznAzn]

Purgatus, on 25 May 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

If balanced well, then range is its problem. A group of fast close range fighters would tear up this squad. That's where tactics come into play.

Yep, in the gameplay video of the catapult in IGN, the dev piloting it mentioned that the enemy was still outside his MINIMUM range.

[Arbalister]

In some pve games I've played, things like attacking from higher terrain - like from a platform in a tree that is intended to be reachable, or from behind a ridge that you can get to from one direction, but which is either difficult or impossible to climb from your target's side - have been called exploits, usually by people that weren't smart enough to use those features to their own advantage. They clearly are not exploits, though - they are terrain features. It is possible to get into those firing positions without using anything that is "broken" in the code - you don't have to clip through a wall, or exploit some other glitch to get to them, you simply have to have the patience to find a route to get to that spot. The places I'm thinking of, for instance, there was a ramp around the tree trunk to the platform... a hop off the platform onto a tree branch, and you had a nice perch. The ridge - walk over the hill from east to west, and stop before you fall. Period. It commanded a good view over a pinch point in lower terrain, and it was not scalable from that side, and difficult to shoot up from. A perfect defensible position, any ranged attacker would be a fool not to use.

Both games eventually added logic to the mobs that made both these spots worthless - "anti-exploit" code - because of all the forum chatter about how this was "cheating."

[Redshift2k5]

Tombstoner, on 25 May 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Terrain has been explained and others touched upon.

What about a lance composed of 90% LRM’s .
Presumably this issue would be address in beta with game balance.

What about using graphically larger mechs as shields.
Am I exploiting the hit box or is it good strategy?

LRMs have a minimum range, and limited ammo, and are not 100% accurate. AMS or signal jamming may also become a factor, and I bet if AMS is an option then we will see them used nearly universally if LRMs start dominating the meta.
Staying behind a meat shield is fair game, but you won't be able to offer much offense without shooting your shielding mech in the back. If you can shoot the enemy, they can shoot you back, and a smart opponent will know you're there and back off or flank accordingly.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 25 May 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Alaskan Viking]

A strategy has a trade off, you are sacrificing something else do do something better. An exploit is a weakness in the game design that gives gross advantage for little to no downside.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Using terrain to your advantage, even in giving yourself a solid defensive position/cover so incoming rounds have little/no effect on your mech is tactics.

However glitching into a position that otherwise any other player could not acheive the same position as easily is exploiting.




I think Sun Tzu should make an appearance in this forum (Not the one from Battletech) reading "The Art of War" would do some folks some good.

Just my .02....now where is my copy....

[GrimFist]

When all else fails shoot it twice.

They doubletap for a reason.

[SaberShark]

In the game quake, a certain glitch called 'rocket jumping' was discovered as a byproduct of the rocket launcher knockback mechanic.
Instead of patching it, the devs encouraged it by making it more effective and creating some map areas that could only be reached by this method.
A lot of other glitches have ascended to strategy over the years but there are some (such as wavedashing in SSB) that the devs fight or remove.
My point is, if a glitch takes a long time to pay off or requires some complicated steps or puts you at a disadvantage/makes you vulnerable while doing it and has a good balanced payoff then it can be considered a valid stratagem instead of an exploit.

[Draco Argentum]

Design intent is not a solid guide. In any kind of complex game the players will think of things that the developers did not. Often things that are vastly overpowered. Thats still not an exploit, its an oversight on the developer's part.

If you're using a code bug its probably an exploit. If it takes skill do to its probably a strategy. Then theres the huge grey area of easy things with no bugs or hard things with bugs.

[Gremlich Johns]

Mate, what Blood Spattered said with a caveat -- read Sun Tzu and Lao Tzu for perspective.

a good start for Sun Tzu


"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself."

so strategem AND exploitation. I, for one, do not presume to use coding bugs, exploitation for me is taking advantage of an opponent's tactical decisions.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 26 May 2012 - 06:15 AM.

[Woska]

Exploitation is something the game should not allow. For example, it is strategy to shoot through a gap between buildings. But it is an exploit to shoot through a building that has a collision detection fault.

Basically, if you imagine the game environment as being real, and what you're doing wouldn't work in the real world, then it's an exploit.