47 replies to this topic

[Aym]

80Bit, on 26 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Then we have Mech XP to GXP conversion. This may not look like P2W on the surface, but it has the potential to be. Right now, the available modules are definitely useful, but again, I don’t think they present a noticeable gameplay advantage. If in the future they become more important though, it could turn into P2W because the natural rate of GXP gain for a free player is so low it is not reasonable to include as a “free alternative”, and thus GXP conversion would meet both my requirements. I hope this does not happen.
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The thing with those modules is unless you have very few mechs you almost need premium time to afford more than a few of those modules so the rate of GXP gain isn't too much of an issue if you can't afford to BUY all those modules. Furthermore the limitation on how many modules that can be equipped at any point reduces the benefit of having unlocked many of them.

[Mr 144]

Antony Weiner, on 26 January 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Like I said, obviously a ballistic driver. 1X is the phract that I am most effective with ("the best"), and 2X is the most versatile, imo. I killed more IMs with my AC20 1X one on one then I ever died to (in fact, I died to an IM only several times), mostly due to constant lucky jams on their uac5s (on-paper values do not translate directly into the game). Would take a 1X over IM any day, since I love that AC20 and do not need 3 giant guns.

This is a very subjective conversation, which only proves that IM is not p2w.

Keep in mind, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Quote

is the only mech that can sport triple UACs effectively giving it THE best burst DPS in the game

Nothing subjective about that. I do think it's a pefect model for toeing the line on P2W, and generating revenue though.

Mr 144

PS...the 1X is my energy boat (5xLL+340XL) not a ballistic platform.

[8CH Trooper]

I think that p2w is one of the most misused and misunderstood remarks in gaming, if you look at the face of it, the implication is that you will win if you pay real money for something in the game that cannot otherwise be had. This is simply not true, if we look at the WoT model buying an elite tank does not guarantee you a steady stream of wins, all it does is give the person a slight advantage. Having said that and for the purposes of this post we can use the p2w remark. I think we have to look at this from a business point of view. PGI is in business to make money, the more money they make the more money they can re-invest in MWO and the better the game gets. As this is a "FREE" game PGI needs to find other ways generate income, this will come from in game sales, real money=MC=Hero Mech, camo etc. The question we have no way of knowing the answer to is, what is PGI's basic operating costs(salary,servers,lease on the office etc) and how does that compare with current or projected income from sales. Without getting into a lengthy discussing about economics and finance which would be pointless as we don't have access to PGI's financial reports, let us just say that PGI will do whatever it takes to generate a profit and stay in business. I do not believe that at this point MWO is p2w, no, will it stay that way, who can say. If PGI determines that the only way to stay in business is to be like WoT then we will see that happen. As WoT hasn't imploded into a black hole from having a p2w business model there is no reason to think that MWO will do it either. I would rather see a p2w business model on MWO than have it fail and hope that someone else will comes along, pick up the pieces and try's again.

[SpajN]

only fools would say mwo is a p2w.

the only thing that matters is, will you always lose to a paying player? or are you at a disadvantage vs a paying player when your in equal situation? if answer is no then stop bitching, you have never died because one guy was paying and you were not you died because you was the weaker player.

ok lets say i want to go online and tear some mechs apart, what should i buy for MC and how much will it cost me to pay my way to WIN?? you cant say because you all know it all depends on how skilled i am.. now close this thread.

not one dollar have i given this game because i need something to do better, i gave the dollars because i want to support the game.. and i have NEVER died and thought "that guy would have lost if he hadnt brought his creditcard".

[80Bit]

From most of these comments, it seems clear that MWO has managed to put forth desirable cash products without causing the community to feel the environment is unfair for free players.

Good work PGI, that's a tall order for a free to play game.

[Adrienne Vorton]

80Bit, on 26 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

From most of these comments, it seems clear that MWO has managed to put forth desirable cash products without causing the community to feel the environment is unfair for free players.

Good work PGI, that's a tall order for a free to play game.

this thread is about p2w... i agree that the grind for a casual player is nearly grewsome if he is a free account...(i have one because i wanted to compare) unless you are a very good player, win alot, kill alot, assist alot (the easiest to manage imho^^) and deal 1000+damage all the time it´s pure hell... compared to a premium that is =)

but that´s what i say, its pay for time, not p2w...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 27 January 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[Noesis]

@OP, well considered, measured and presented post.

[MechWarrior071507]

a nation can get titans for real money in Eve online.

they can also get them for free by grinding in game.

The nation that pays money will have more, and be superior in all fights.

But they are both available for free in game, if you just spend enough Time Units of your life. But the buyers will have faster access and win fights more than you can.

Edited by Khorek, 27 January 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[MechWarrior071507]

Kyryos, on 26 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

If clan tech is only purchasable with MC ill probably just end my life. lol jk but it better be buyable with cbills

people with SLDF tech in all their mechs cause of founder program Cbills already have mechs almost 100% equal in power to Clan mechs. Thats the XL engines and the DHS and the ES and the FF and all that.

[DEN_Ninja]

Does anyone else notice that Hero Mechs can die just as fast as any other mech?

[OneEyed Jack]

80Bit, on 26 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Some hero mechs can do things no free alternative can, such as the Muromets dual arm gauss,

CTF-4X Can have double arm-mounted Gauss.

Mr 144, on 26 January 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

In terms of Hero Mechs...The Ilya Triple UAC is pushing the limit...but I gotta say, I bought one

I know you're not pushing this point, and I only quoted this instead of later posts regarding this because I came to it first, but for the purpose of others reading I chose to comment.

From my experience, the CTF-4X can have builds that compete very closely with Triple UAC. I personally lean toward Double UAC, Double AC2. It puts out very nearly the same DPS but adds the consistency and extended range of the AC2, so your guns are never ALL jammed. The Ilya can go faster, but not much with that particular build, and the (worthwhile) builds you can do with a faster engine can be emulated with other Phracts or a K2.

All-in-all, I've spent quite a bit of time in my Ilya and experimented with a lot of different builds. Every one of the effective builds was something I felt I could have just as easily been running the equivalent to in a different mech.... I just would have been making kless C-bills doing it.

Antony Weiner, on 26 January 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Would take a 1X over IM any day, since I love that AC20 and do not need 3 giant guns.

This is a very subjective conversation, which only proves that IM is not p2w.

While I agree with the second part, the Ilya can also run an AC20, though the fewer Energy hardpoints make it more difficult to build around such a weighty single weapon. I often lament privately that there's nothing useful in the Ballistic class below 6 tons to make use of the hardpoints without dedicating significant tonnage. A ballistic equivalent to the ML, if you will.

Khorek, on 27 January 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

people with SLDF tech in all their mechs cause of founder program Cbills already have mechs almost 100% equal in power to Clan mechs. Thats the XL engines and the DHS and the ES and the FF and all that.

No. They have tech that uses the same names, but is far from equal.

• Clan XL don't destroy the mech if you lose a side torso.
  
• Clan DHS are 2/3 the size, making it far more viable to fit enough to actually cool your mech, especially in energy-heavy builds.
  
• Clan ES and FF use 1/2 the crits, so nearly every mech can fit one, and almost as many can fit both.
  
• Nearly all Clan tech is smaller and/or lighter and/or more effective than it's IS counterparts.

Effectively, you have more tonnage and crits available to fit a greater number of weapons that are individually more effective and can fire them more consistently due to better heat dissipation. And they have targeting computers. No, I believe the manual targeting in MWO will help keep the advantage from being as great as it is in TT (if playing 3050) where the basic Clan pilots were also better than IS pilots and a Star (5 Clan mechs) matched performance with about a Company (12 IS mechs), but the tech is most certainly not nearly equal.

[Flapdrol]

The triple uac5 ilya is borderline pay to win imo. Luckily it's "just" a heavy, they shouldn't do the same trick with an atlas.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

I also think Ilya is really pushing the P2W envelope... it's the only mech in the entire game that can mount triple of three of the deadliest guns in the entire game:: UAC5 or gauss (don't laugh, I just talked to a friend who has a friend who actually uses the triple gauss build to kill stuff apparently). The Ilya can also be much faster than the 4X phract and able to mount more energy weapons, all the while giving you a c-bill and XP boost allowing you to buy other stuff to make it and other mechs even deadlier... it's no surprise how prolific the Ilya is... almost every MWO match has at least one or two since it came out. If it wasn't so effective, and borderline P2W, it wouldn't be used by the playerbase in such high numbers. Ilya definitely conveys an advantage as an overall package that can only be bought with real $. Pay to succeed, if you will.

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Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 27 January 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[HiplyRustic]

8CH Trooper, on 26 January 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

PGI is in business to make money, the more money they make the more money they can re-invest in MWO and the better the game gets. As this is a "FREE" game PGI needs to find other ways generate income, this will come from in game sales, real money=MC=Hero Mech, camo etc. let us just say that PGI will do whatever it takes to generate a profit and stay in business.

I'm not entirely convinced that the primary reason PGI as a business wants to make money is to put it back into the game instead of their respective 401ks (RSPs), portfolios, hookers and beer funds, etc. Capitalism isn't altruistic...not even a little...and the only reason profits will be reinvested will be to make significantly more money than they reinvested.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 27 January 2013 - 07:14 AM.

[Livewyr]

I disagree about the Modules- I earn GXP rather quickly (granted that is with 50% extra, but even then.. I've earned 7000 over the course of about 4-5 hours of gaming.

[Mal]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 27 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I also think Ilya is really pushing the P2W envelope... it's the only mech in the entire game that can mount triple of three of the deadliest guns in the entire game:: UAC5 or gauss (don't laugh, I just talked to a friend who has a friend who actually uses the triple gauss build to kill stuff apparently). The Ilya can also be much faster than the 4X phract and able to mount more energy weapons, all the while giving you a c-bill and XP boost allowing you to buy other stuff to make it and other mechs even deadlier... it's no surprise how prolific the Ilya is... almost every MWO match has at least one or two since it came out. If it wasn't so effective, and borderline P2W, it wouldn't be used by the playerbase in such high numbers. Ilya definitely conveys an advantage as an overall package that can only be bought with real $. Pay to succeed, if you will.

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Hero 'Mechs don't give bonus XP. XP is gained at the same rate as non-hero 'Mechs.

Almost every MWO match has a Hunchback, an Atlas, and a Catapult as well. With only so many chassis to choose from, you're going to see them frequently.

[GoManGo]

I think it is PAY2WIN the reason I think this is I have fought many purchased mechs and they are much harder to kill overall. This makes me think there internal hitboxes are much smaller than a normal model. I cant deconstruct one to prove my point with 3d max but if I could im very sure this would be why there so hard to kill and hold there weapons and equipment longer in battles. So I believe it is now a PAY2WIN game when they do in reality have a unfair advantage.

[Xenosphobatic]

Adrienne Vorton, on 27 January 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

this thread is about p2w... i agree that the grind for a casual player is nearly grewsome if he is a free account...(i have one because i wanted to compare) unless you are a very good player, win alot, kill alot, assist alot (the easiest to manage imho^^) and deal 1000+damage all the time it´s pure hell... compared to a premium that is =)

but that´s what i say, its pay for time, not p2w...

I came in pre-cadet bonus, non-founder, casual, non-premium player. It was a nasty grind at first, but thanks to friends who play the game, it was tolerable. With the cadet bonus, that shouldn't be as much a problem anymore. But that's beside the point. On topic:

I've never felt that any of the Hero mechs were p2w. Unique, colorful, and I have felt quite a lot of jealousy over their very nice color schemes (and c-bill bonus), but I've never felt they gave an overwhelming advantage. Even the Ilya, while being a very powerful variant, is not much more impressive than a well thought out Cataphract build.

The MXP to GXP/module argument is not even close to p2w, as the modules are, at best, helpful, but the immense c-bill cost for individual modules kind of negates the debate IMO.

And since all the weapons are ONLY c-bill purchasable (at the moment), I've never felt that anyone, paying or not, had an advantage. Hopefully PGI keeps up the good work, and I'm sure they'll be looking forward to my next MC purchase for more mechbays (so I can fill them with more c-bill bought mechs).

[Mal]

GoManGo, on 27 January 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I think it is PAY2WIN the reason I think this is I have fought many purchased mechs and they are much harder to kill overall. This makes me think there internal hitboxes are much smaller than a normal model. I cant deconstruct one to prove my point with 3d max but if I could im very sure this would be why there so hard to kill and hold there weapons and equipment longer in battles. So I believe it is now a PAY2WIN game when they do in reality have a unfair advantage.

I have not noticed this. Some may seem harder to kill due to pilot skill, but I haven't noticed it being any harder to hit one.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Adrienne Vorton, on 27 January 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

this thread is about p2w... i agree that the grind for a casual player is nearly grewsome if he is a free account...(i have one because i wanted to compare) unless you are a very good player, win alot, kill alot, assist alot (the easiest to manage imho^^) and deal 1000+damage all the time it´s pure hell... compared to a premium that is =)

but that´s what i say, its pay for time, not p2w...

P4t is definitely it. Grind on a f2p pure account and its doabl no prob. But once you go premium its like crack....they know what theyare doing. Its haaaard to go back after premium. Hero mechs just make it that much sweeter haha. Thus far PGI has done a decent job of towing the line with mechs with a unique but not op flavor. The trick isnt that mechs basedon free chassis cannot be built to mimic a unique hero option. The trick is that the unique hero should not confer a concrete advantage.