65 replies to this topic

[Oy of MidWorld]

There are few statistics on the stats page. One of the most prominent is the Kill/Death Ratio. This is not really a good indicator of skill in this game, as it is actually decieving. It favors some builds and playstyles clearly over others, and some of those unfavorable playstyles are actually very important to a good team..

My point is that it leads to some terrible gameplay:

People carelessly shooting into bunches of brawling mechs, to proooobably get that kill, hitting their teammates.

People getting in very very close to targets (much closer than rationally advisable) creating those close bunches in the first place (looking goofy btw...).

People intentionally blocking the line of fire of teammates, to be the one scoring that last hit.

People waiting for a target getting worn down to red-critical, so their own alpha will finish it (unbelievable, but some people actually do this).

People disconnecting mid-match, when they are damaged, but could still have made a difference, further hurting their team.

People being angry about "kill stealers", when they should be happy their team is winning.

And the list goes on, i guess...

I've always considered myself a team player. When i first started playing, my K/D was rather low. So i ignored it, still being happy as can be about every kill i scored. Still playing carefully and team oriented. But when i improved, and finally got past that magical 1.0 mark, i noticed myself starting to play cheesier, sometimes not telling my lancemates about a heavily injured enemy mech, as i think "hey, i got it in a sec..." And if something happens, and i don't get it, i have just hurt my team. So i force myself to always tell nowadays, however suspect that my lancemates don't always do it. There we are, even us, corrupted by our precious K/D rate...

Even if you know about it, and resist it, it eventually gets you (not everyone, i know, but some of us) and leads to cheesy play. What do you think about it?

[Even Dark]

The funnyest i see is, when 1 scouter is spottet alone and 6 mechs running behind them to get the kill and get killed self because they dont notice that the big mechs start attacking there back

but k/d is not so the problem. 2nd bigger problem is you get more xp and money if you kill someone, and i saw so many ppl firing on own teamates to a hit a mech....

Edited by Even Dark, 14 January 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Fogswynd]

I think cheese-ball players will be cheese-ball regardless, but the hope is that without this metric, there'd be fewer people playing snipe-and-hide builds on mechs obviously designed, and meant, to be getting shot at.

It annoys me when I see Hunchbacks trying to break lines while Atlases chill 800m back lobbing LRMs...

[Vassago Rain]

No, nothing would change.

[Blood Officer 006]

Oy of MidWorld, on 14 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

There are few statistics on the stats page. One of the most prominent is the Kill/Death Ratio. This is not really a good indicator of skill in this game, as it is actually decieving. It favors some builds and playstyles clearly over others, and some of those unfavorable playstyles are actually very important to a good team..

My point is that it leads to some terrible gameplay:

People carelessly shooting into bunches of brawling mechs, to proooobably get that kill, hitting their teammates.

People getting in very very close to targets (much closer than rationally advisable) creating those close bunches in the first place (looking goofy btw...).

People intentionally blocking the line of fire of teammates, to be the one scoring that last hit.

People waiting for a target getting worn down to red-critical, so their own alpha will finish it (unbelievable, but some people actually do this).

People disconnecting mid-match, when they are damaged, but could still have made a difference, further hurting their team.

People being angry about "kill stealers", when they should be happy their team is winning.

And the list goes on, i guess...

I've always considered myself a team player. When i first started playing, my K/D was rather low. So i ignored it, still being happy as can be about every kill i scored. Still playing carefully and team oriented. But when i improved, and finally got past that magical 1.0 mark, i noticed myself starting to play cheesier, sometimes not telling my lancemates about a heavily injured enemy mech, as i think "hey, i got it in a sec..." And if something happens, and i don't get it, i have just hurt my team. So i force myself to always tell nowadays, however suspect that my lancemates don't always do it. There we are, even us, corrupted by our precious K/D rate...

Even if you know about it, and resist it, it eventually gets you (not everyone, i know, but some of us) and leads to cheesy play. What do you think about it?

I'm afraid all of the things you list as flaws will continue whether there is KD ratio's or not. Some people will kill steal regardless of how they splash their teammates. Some will always play FOTM builds or cheese-builds. They will still disco to farm c-bills or due to frustration over not winning every single time (or simple because they're frustrated in general).

As for blocking a teammate to try for a kill shot...I've yet to see that because no one likes to get cored in the back panels where their armor is weakest.

[Imperius]

Yup already posted this myself saying stats will kill the game... Looks like you're seeing the effects of what I already saw and stated.

[TruePoindexter]

I don't mind private stats myself - they're useful as a metric for tracking progression. I hate public stats though. Public stats encourage e-peen behavior which is never a good thing and frankly is completely unnecessary. There's no difference between BF3 stats page and a bunch of guys whipping it out in the back to see who's is bigger.

All that said I do want to comment on some of your statements about how stats influence play:

Oy of MidWorld, on 14 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

People carelessly shooting into bunches of brawling mechs, to proooobably get that kill, hitting their teammates.

Most players are just lazy honestly. It's not that they want the kill - it's that they're too lazy to maneuver to a position that won't have them dragging lasers across their teammates.

Oy of MidWorld, on 14 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

People getting in very very close to targets (much closer than rationally advisable) creating those close bunches in the first place (looking goofy btw...).

Most people are horrible at piloting their mech and just run into everything. Plus many are terrible shots. It's hard to miss a target that you can smell.

Oy of MidWorld, on 14 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

People intentionally blocking the line of fire of teammates, to be the one scoring that last hit.

I've been suspicious of this myself though I think most of it is just not paying attention to firing lines.

Oy of MidWorld, on 14 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

People waiting for a target getting worn down to red-critical, so their own alpha will finish it (unbelievable, but some people actually do this).

This I have seen. Not a huge deal honestly - the target dying is the important part.

Oy of MidWorld, on 14 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

People disconnecting mid-match, when they are damaged, but could still have made a difference, further hurting their team.

I've not seen this. I'm sure it happens but I haven't seen it. Now I have seen people DC during losing Conquest games forcing you to win by points... which is painful when everyone left is in a slow mech.

Oy of MidWorld, on 14 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

People being angry about "kill stealers", when they should be happy their team is winning.

I've seen this and I just ignore it. The point is the target died. If you want the kill credit kill things faster.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Given the popularity of stats in HUGE games out there, I still fail to see any real evidence of the stats killing this game.

What's killing the game are the flaws in it as we're this far in an open beta and still don't see Community warfare which will be a huge huge step in the right direction. If you think KDR's are the driving force behind people getting frustrated and leaving the game over things like lack of collision, "lag shields" and poor netcode, lack of community warfare, PUGs vs premades and no way to shephard new players and the boogie man in the room, ECM I'd say you're completely missing the point of this game.

People aren't leaving because someone else is concerned with their KDR. People are leaving because the game isn't ready and doesn't yet show steady progress towards 1) being ready or 2) addressing the major flaws of the game that people report/complain about daily.

[Eddrick]

K/D ratio is an individual stat that can be easly mislead and it shouldn't have any effect. The ones that it does make a differance: if the person is selfish enough to think that individual stats matter.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Nothing would change. For those that use the K/D ratio as a measuring stick of how 1337 they are, will simply find a different metric if the K/D ratio is removed. They feel the need for bragging rights and that will never change.

Stats are useful if interpreted properly. Unfortunately we do not have access to all our stats that would actually be a good indicator of our performance.

[Solis Obscuri]

TruePoindexter, on 14 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

a bunch of guys whipping it out in the back to see who's is bigger

TruePoindexter, on 14 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

frankly is completely unnecessary

TruePoindexter, on 14 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

It's hard to miss a target that you can smell.

[TruePoindexter]

Solis Obscuri, on 14 January 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

[Oy of MidWorld]

Lukoi, on 14 January 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Given the popularity of stats in HUGE games out there, I still fail to see any real evidence of the stats killing this game.

What's killing the game are the flaws in it as we're this far in an open beta and still don't see Community warfare which will be a huge huge step in the right direction. If you think KDR's are the driving force behind people getting frustrated and leaving the game over things like lack of collision, "lag shields" and poor netcode, lack of community warfare, PUGs vs premades and no way to shephard new players and the boogie man in the room, ECM I'd say you're completely missing the point of this game.

People aren't leaving because someone else is concerned with their KDR. People are leaving because the game isn't ready and doesn't yet show steady progress towards 1) being ready or 2) addressing the major flaws of the game that people report/complain about daily.

I think you're completely missing my point, this is not about people leaving (bye), or something killing the game (nonsense), this is about the thought If removing a certain statistic could possibly help improve gameplay.

Fogswynd, on 14 January 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

I think cheese-ball players will be cheese-ball regardless, but the hope is that without this metric, there'd be fewer people playing snipe-and-hide builds on mechs obviously designed, and meant, to be getting shot at.

It annoys me when I see Hunchbacks trying to break lines while Atlases chill 800m back lobbing LRMs...

Yeah, noticed that kind of behavior too... "Look, i got 2 LRM launchers and 8 tons of ammo on this atlas, i'll hang back, do the arty thing..." drives me nuts. Guys get a catapult.

Edited by Oy of MidWorld, 15 January 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Aznpersuasion89]

i dint read anything, but for me my K/D is only important to me just so i cant see how well im doing overall. but by no means do i go gun blazing not caring about teammates. if you think about, accidentally killing your teammates will probably end of making the round harder for you since half your team is dead and youll die, and your K/D will drop and youll be a sad kid trying to get your K/D back up and the cycle continues.

[Gallowglas]

If you play in a competitive game, you should want statistics. Granted, just having K/D and W/L is kind of weak, but it's a starting point. If people let those numbers change their behavior negatively, you're not going to change that by removing stats. All you're going to do is anger those of us who want MORE statistics and who use them to improve our gameplay, while still focusing on team effort.

Honestly, the whole discussion about taking out competitive stats makes me want to kick kittens. I understand the point the OP makes, but some of the discussion reminds me of the whole concept of everyone getting a trophy. Furthermore, I want ongoing measurable statistics that aren't just encapsulated in one game.

[Xigunder Blue]

Personally believe that the K/D stat is in and it is going to stay. 'Mine is bigger than yours' concept is stated in childhood and has continued since, to a greater or lesser extent. Having said that I would like to point out an official response to a damage problem I encounter every time I play. I have seen (thru 3 full uninstall/re-install) my damage level as reported on the final report window after a match seems very low. This damage total directly affects the cbills I get from the match. I assumed it was just poor targeting on my part. However, after a toe to toe slug out with my Atlas vs another Atlas at about 100 meters, seeing the missile and laser hit animations, when going to final screen my damage showed 43 points of damage. Enough!!!

I sent in a report (not a rant) to Support. They replied that there was some problems with Reported damage but the actual damage in game was accurate. They also said in the email that they were working on it. I doubt that this is a high priority for them although I have no idea how many cbills I have missed. The damage report continues to be low so far thus it hasn't been corrected.

My point is that I do not trust that ingame damage is truly accurate either. I am using a Stalker-5m w/5 streak and 5 laser and hitting visually with massive damage on various mechs and the opponent mech yet they show relatively low % drops on the target box. I think it might be my computer but re-installs have not changed. I will lean to being a poor targeter for now but the K/D ratio and kills ingame as reported make for a depressing situation. The K/D ratio may well have a lot to do with the incoming ELO thingy and I truly hope that it is not bugged.

Edited by Xigunder Blue, 15 January 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Asheron Storm]

As a psychologist I can tell you that most of our evidence supports the idea that people perform better when they have immediate feedback, goals to shoot for, and competition. The K/D helps supply us with these things.

The OP is right that some players focus heavily on K/D, to their point where it impacts their behavior.. but to say they don't play as well because of it is not necessarily accurate. I personally believe that K/D should be kept, but more stats should be added as well. For instance, add stats showing how much damage has been done to teammates and how much damage has been taken from teammates. Add a stat showing how many cap points the player has. Essentially, by adding more stats, you start creating different "positions" on the team and encouraging different playstyles.

American Football teams don't complain about their primadona quarterbacks.. in fact they want the best primadona quarterback they can get their hands on. Baseball teams encourage their pitchers to go for good win%, innings pitched, ERA, etc. We shouldn't be complaining because some players focus on K/D.. we should be encouraging those players and using them to their full potential. If we had more stats available, we could start making plans which utilize people to their full effectiveness.

It might even be cool if you could allow a player to pick which stats they will focus on, then give them extra xp/pay for how well they do in those stats.

New Mech Spotted might also be a good stat to add.

[Heffay]

More stats. Publicly visible. API to access them.

Nothing else will do.

[Xyroc]

The fact that you can DC and not get a death is what ruins it not the fact that we can see the KDR

[Kain]

K/D ratio in a teambased game where multiple people can attack one enemy is also pretty useless...

I like stats ,but the stats need to make some sense :-)