28 replies to this topic

[AustinNH]

Part of what made ECM so strong was the lagshield. Only lock-on weapons could reliably hit lights for full damage (cue someone insulting my aim), and ECM made lock-on weapons almost useless against lights (with the only reliable counter being, yup, ECM). Thereby, ECM made lights very durable. Now that lights can be easily hit by lasers, the fact that they carry ECM is no longer so important. So I ask in this pole, to what extent do you think the netcode improvements helped?

[Chrithu]

For me that's a yes to: ECM was OP especially in combination with boating streaks and the netcode improvement fixed both for me.

[Joseph Mallan]

ECM is only OP if players don't use their Mk1 eyeballs and thermal vision. I have no problem hitting Mechs with ECM... so long as they are slow movers. But then again i have slightly slow reflexes and fast Non ECM Mechs are a pain too.

[Raidyr]

The problem with ECM has nothing to do with netcode, it has everything to do with it being a poorly designed piece of equipment that confers too many advantages for a tiny cost. The small netcode improvements made direct-fire weapons more useable than they were before but ECM is still ridiculously broken.

Joseph Mallan, on 28 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

ECM is only OP if players don't use their Mk1 eyeballs and thermal vision. I have no problem hitting Mechs with ECM... so long as they are slow movers. But then again i have slightly slow reflexes and fast Non ECM Mechs are a pain too.

Eyeballs have nothing to do with missile locks being totally unable to be achieved against other mechs. The fact that I drop with a friend and am forced into an ECM mech just because he wants to play an LRM boat is a complete joke

[Broceratops]

anyone who voted 'netcode doesn't help at all' can't aim, which pretty much makes everything OP to them. I'm having pretty good success against 3L's with a Jenner F now.

the main problem is that whilst dueling a 3L, you are open to all the pug lrm boats.

Edited by Broceratops, 28 January 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[Grissnap]

I actually haven't seen a lot of lights recently... so still not sure if I can hit them or not.

[VonRunnegen]

I too can beat 3L's one on one in a jenner quite often now (yay to the new netcode!) - but that doesn't make ECM suddenly not OP. If the fight is near any other mechs the raven is making a big difference to their day too, its not all about 1 vs 1. Also I'm a lot mroe vulnerable than them to lots of other builds that use missiles or just that when I round a corner they know I'm coming and have guns trained, while the Raven can surprise people much more easily.

Honestly I'm happy to be much less able to brawl in a light, its a good change - but the Raven still can much too effectively.

[bug3at3r]

Personally, i wish they'be split ECM into 2 different entities, and no mech could equip both.

[Chrithu]

Actually points 3 and 4 are kinda the same: If ECM was perceived as OP and Netcode fixes that then in theory ECM never was OP since balance in theory never should account for bugs/flaws in the basic game mechanics.

My personal impression is YES before the netcode improvements Ravens and Commandos racked up to the teeth with Streaks and ECM were far too strong. Also I found the mechanic of how ECM stacked and you needed the same number of counters was stupid. But also from my observation that has changed dramatically since the netcode allows for actually hitting them with weapons that need to aim. Most light ECM mechs not even live half as long as they used and if they do they are out of weapons quite fast. This also solves the stacking problem: Kill the light ECMs fast then easily counter the remaining heavier ones.

Also: ECM breaking your ability to lock on is not OP but it intended and was already easily circumvented when the TAG range was increased. Failing to put a tag on your Missile boat is a design flaw on your end and does not make ECM OP.

[BatWing]

My simple point is:

When you can kill the ECM carrier, you can solve the ECM problem.

Killing Atlases has never been a problem, although when you face 4 Atlases you better have other massive firepower.

Killing Ravens was a problem and made the raven the best Brawlers out there. it is no more.

Now handling ECM is a matter of better strategy and use on TAG from the outside of the remaining ECM bubble.

It can be done. Probably ppl need some cooperation to do it correctly.

IMO netcode helped a lot.

[Joseph Mallan]

Raidyr, on 28 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Eyeballs have nothing to do with missile locks being totally unable to be achieved against other mechs. The fact that I drop with a friend and am forced into an ECM mech just because he wants to play an LRM boat is a complete joke

True... So use a Guass instead. or a ERPPC or ER Large Laser. Those are my long range counters to ECM. They work well too!

(MODs... can we please get an evil smile emoticon?)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 January 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[LoganMkv]

Everyone hates ecm for different reasons.

Lights/lrm boats/streakcats hate it for being unable to lock
Heavies/assaults hate it for being unable to notice assassins like srmcat
Snipers hate it for being unable to notice anything in dense environments

Imo ecm is fine as long as you have one in your team, and the pilot knows how to use it effectively. However more often there's no ecm at all or some mоron who takes it for personal defence only and doesn't even know how to change mode. I can suggest multiplying ecm mechs xp/cbills by usage efficiency: if you cover allies and counter enemies you get multiplier higher than 1, but if you run away capping/boating/charging you get closer to 0.

[Commander Kobold]

Jason Parker, on 28 January 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

ECM breaking your ability to lock on is not OP but it intended and was already easily circumvented when the TAG range was increased.

Guarian ECM is currently too powerfull for the cost(and or complete lack of downside) and TAG (while the range boost does help) is still a bad counter for it, mostly do to it being blocked by ECM (if close by of course) taking up an energy slot (whilst ECM only takes up a few crits) and (personal gripe here) having to hold the button/key down is annoying (I'd prefer a toggle function) and as for easy, keeping a tag laser on a fast light is requires waay more effort than just hacing ECM...which requires no effort.

[bug3at3r]

...what if ECM took up a missile hardpoint?

Edited by bug3at3r, 28 January 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Mechteric]

bug3at3r, on 28 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

...what if ECM took up a missile hardpoint?

it would make no logical sense at all...


What I would like to see is to make it so that having BAP can at least let you target the enemy ECM mech at a longer range (even if you still can't lock on or see them on radar). I think currently that range is like 100-150m? Perhaps BAP would let you get that out to 300m.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 28 January 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Commander Kobold]

bug3at3r, on 28 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

...what if ECM took up a missile hardpoint?

Doesn't make much sense :/ but it would be interesting if ECM took up an energy hardpoint. As for why, you could say the ECM unit draws power from the laser rig or some nonsence like that.

CapperDeluxe, on 28 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

it would make no logical sense at all...


What I would like to see is to make it so that having BAP can at least least you target the enemy ECM mech at a longer range (even if you still can't lock on or see them on radar). I think currently that range is like 100-150m? Perhaps BAP would let you get that out to 300m.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Guardian ECM originally designed to counter targeting computers like BAP?

[bug3at3r]

CapperDeluxe, on 28 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

it would make no logical sense at all...

It would be a balancing act. The true reason ECM is as OP as it is is because of how well it goes hand in hand with streaks, IMO.

It wouldn't be the first thing that doesn't make sense. XL's are bigger and weigh less. Yet to find someone that can explain that to me besides balance.

[Mechteric]

Omni 13, on 28 January 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Guardian ECM originally designed to counter targeting computers like BAP?

sure, but as we've seen this far taking the table top's original interpretation of ECM can be harmful to the gameplay and balance of other systems. Besides my suggestion would still retain the ECM's advantage, just give a bit more of a purpose to BAP since it desperately needs more purpose.

[bug3at3r]

CapperDeluxe, on 28 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

sure, but as we've seen this far taking the table top's original interpretation of ECM can be harmful to the gameplay and balance of other systems. Besides my suggestion would still retain the ECM's advantage, just give a bit more of a purpose to BAP since it desperately needs more purpose.

...I might be wrong here, pretty new to TT, but isn't ECM in TT 2 different things (Guardian and Angel) with 2 different effects (With the 'aura' effect being entirely new?)

[Thorqemada]

If the netcode would be improved enough it would help but not balance it.

There are less Lights and more Heavys and Assaults than ever b4 in the game, Atlas D-DC taking over the role from the Lights.
The majority of games sees 1 Light and 2 or 3 Atlasses.

But the Lights that play still often manage to get under the Pingshield - it is as the Pingshield gets worse the more days after a patch have bygone.
When a Raven or Commanod stops in front of me its usally dead in 2 Alphas and yet the buggers survived 4 and 5 and did at best become slightly yellow with Armor still around, even Cicadas survived massed fire from a whole team.
Quite some times it feels as if the enemy plays at different rules...

ECM unbalances still the game giving the number superior side exclusivity of usage and that wont change by the netcode.

Edited by Thorqemada, 28 January 2013 - 09:17 AM.