157 replies to this topic

[Kommisar]

Oh, you can and do get a good, solid PUG drop from time to time. I'll solo drop when no one else is around from my group and I'm sure a lot of vet guys do.

However, if you see 3 LRM boats... yea, that is premade. One LRM boat; okay, I can buy. Two is unlikely. Three is certain.

I play the odds. If I don't see at least one moron that has declared "Leroy Jenkins" and rushed off to find his personal Valhalla I go in assuming I have an 8 man premade back there.

If I'm in the match for over 3 minutes and no one on my team has picked up even a half-second target blip, I go in assuming I have an 8 man premade back there.

Probably not, but better safe than sorry.

[sycocys]

unless you playing a peak hours with the kids, if you ask we will generally respond honestly. really goes the same for any question when you get someone older than 15-16 on the other end of your question.

timing of entrance into match doesn't work, because that's based upon ping - most times I drop in 1st or 2nd, with maybe one of my team alternating and the other two drop randomly in the 4-8 slots.

organization is probably the best guide, but again I've been seeing patches of pug players starting to understand the tactics end of the game more and more - this will ebb and flow.

wouldn't be a half bad idea to post-match highlight pre-mades, but it would be just as good of an idea to give mercs a performance bonus to offset things a little until c3 is working for pug drops.

[Tarman]

I could care less about detection, really. If they're really good the match will be fast and if they're not then we eats them. They don't show up as often as the accusations of it do. My fave is being accused of being a preemie when a pugside pulls out a total steamroll. Puggers, I have seen the enemy, and he is us. Yes, there are premades. Yes, they can murder you. No, it's not THAT often. No, they're not all invincible.

IDC about losing to a coordinated group, it's fun to square off against someone you'll probably need to pull out an A-game to face. Just don't talk gradeschool smack about it, that's completely unclassy and sad, and the only thing that bothers me about facing a preemie. For the teamplayers who think all pugs suck, dropping down into the ghetto and fighting them while running your gates isn't a feather in your caps, dudes. By your own trashtalk you're fighting people supposedly waaaay below your skill levels (which is funny when smacktalkers have to eat all their own teeth). That's the kind of player that gives the other teamguys a bad rap. They're not all bad, just you gate-runners. Show some class like the decent units.

The only thing worse than a sore loser is an egg-sucking-grin winner; and you can't claim to be a pro when you're loling about punching babies. Babies however, stop crying so much when they DO punch you. It's a fighting game, people will probably try to fight you; and some of them will be much better at this game than you currently are. Get better or die more, crying just blurs your HUD.

[pcunite]

If it was a wash out 8-0 ... a premade was most likely present. I tend to pug a great deal but have extensively 4-maned as well so I have some perspective. When a 4-man is present and they have reasonable coordination, it is game over for you.

I experienced a very interesting game last night while in a 2-man (me and a friend). It was Frozen city night and I directed the pugs to hold the ridge and not peek. Suddenly, in from behind (using ECM sneak) two stalkers and something else wasted me and my friend in 6 seconds.

Because individual mechs and their fire power are totally inadequate, two stalkers firing SRM's at the same mech, can deal damage faster than can be countered. This problem only gets worse the less coordination (pugs) you have.

[Kobold]

Tarman, on 28 January 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Just don't talk gradeschool smack about it, that's completely unclassy and sad, and the only thing that bothers me about facing a preemie.

I have seen virtually no smack talk in MWO at all. Usually the only talk I see is from people griping after they die (and usually about their teammates).

[Havyek]

sycocys, on 28 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

timing of entrance into match doesn't work, because that's based upon ping - most times I drop in 1st or 2nd, with maybe one of my team alternating and the other two drop randomly in the 4-8 slots.

Not necessarily either. I constantly have a ping between 15-50 and am rarely if ever the first in the game. Usually between 4-6 man on my team. After checking the rest, I'm almost always in the top 3 lowest pings in the match.

I'm fairly certain it's more along the lines of faster computers render the map and area first, therefor they get into the match first.

[Kobold]

BDU Havoc, on 28 January 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Not necessarily either. I constantly have a ping between 15-50 and am rarely if ever the first in the game. Usually between 4-6 man on my team. After checking the rest, I'm almost always in the top 3 lowest pings in the match.

I'm fairly certain it's more along the lines of faster computers render the map and area first, therefor they get into the match first.

It is definitely some kind of technical issue that determines who is in first. I am almost always near the top of my team when loading in. I have a good connection to PGI (around 40ms) and a fairly new computer.

[Havyek]

I'd actually like less of a witch-hunt for those big, bad meanie pre-mades and maybe have a check box before the match that says: "I intend to run off by myself, die alone, ignore anything that's said/suggested in chat and then when I run into the entire enemy team, run to the MWO forums and complain about pre-mades being the bane of PUGs like me. YES / NO"

[Bluescuba]

Well if you see my name 90% of the time I will be running with atleast 1 or 2 lance mates. Furthermore, I usually make it obvious with a comment like "we come for your mead and women" or "we of the Skjaldborg salute you"

Please remember just because you have a partial premade against you does not mean that we are the only partial in the match. In about 50% of my games I recognise other premade players on the other team.

BTW most decent premade players have no issue with having their names colour coded as premades at the end of the match. It will finally make people realise that they are not only stomped by premades but by other pugs.

Edited by Bluescuba, 28 January 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Will Randor]

All interesting stuff - shows its not trivial to tell what you just fought from the game interface.....I obviously easily spot bad PUGs as they run solo at the enemy and also really good teams who run rear light interference or expertly snipe your PUGs.

More 8v8 proper fights might start if the TS servers had a "want an 8v8" room. Seems mainly 4 man drops without being in a clan currently.

Rank is also key to matchmaking and even seeing it after a match as I strongly agree that an 8 man team of expert players not only looks like a premade but could certainly beat an average to good premade even if they have no voice. All we have is founder tag I think but you can still be a rubbish founder player.

Just knowing which people were a good rank and not "Rank 1" at the end would help this a lot even if they were not colour coded. This works on BF3 as occasionally people say I am cheating (I would never cheat at a video game period) but many others look at the rank and go its really high so he is obviously good at this...

[Tarman]

BDU Havoc, on 28 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I'd actually like less of a witch-hunt for those big, bad meanie pre-mades and maybe have a check box before the match that says: "I intend to run off by myself, die alone, ignore anything that's said/suggested in chat and then when I run into the entire enemy team, run to the MWO forums and complain about pre-mades being the bane of PUGs like me. YES / NO"

Thanks for being a mild example of the smacktalkers I mentioned.

[Serapth]

BDU Havoc, on 28 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I'd actually like less of a witch-hunt for those big, bad meanie pre-mades and maybe have a check box before the match that says: "I intend to run off by myself, die alone, ignore anything that's said/suggested in chat and then when I run into the entire enemy team, run to the MWO forums and complain about pre-mades being the bane of PUGs like me. YES / NO"

We will of course have this, when ELO is implemented.

Really in some ways the new user experience is going to go from being matched against veterans and premades and killed in seconds, to being matched with other newbies, the dregs of MWO, the TKers, the DC farmers, the suicidal idiots and the like. Probably wont make for the greatest first impression either... but at least they wont get slaughtered in seconds in their trial mech.

I really hope PGI implement a negative ELO score, so the true dregs arent matched up with the new.


The premade problem though, will continue to exist until they clearly mark who are and arent premades. That is the only way to slay the boogieman, or prove the unfairness, once and for all.




On the topic at hand, I do believe load order very much indicates a premade. When you have 6 people on one side, but 2 on the other... watch the outcome of the match. Ive seen landslides enough when it occurs that I firmly believe it is an indicator. I have also seen it enough on my side ( where we have 6 or so people on our side, to their 2 ), that I simply ask if we have a premade... and I would say 90% of the time we do.

However, I have a really good ping, so it might not be the same for everyone.

[Hillslam]

Darth Will, on 28 January 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

...
Color coding or marking premades AFTER the round would really help us all clarify – identifying them before has risks as disconnects will go up hugely.
...

THIS is probably the best suggestion I've seen in a LONG LONG time on this forum.

As for detecting Premades, as others have mentioned there's no fullproof way, but I've found where you spawn to be a pretty good indicator, as mentioned here:

Quote

I think it has less to do with the map layout's affect on the spawn point and more to do with the fact that on River City the 4mans overwhelmingly drop on the bay side. Its just how that map fills its slots: premades to the bayside first.

Sure there are statistical anomalies, but if you've dropped on the pad, bank on the fact that you're a PUG of pure singles, or at most have one or two pairs of players together. (again, exceptions do happen, but they're rare) And vice versa - if you're a solo and you've dropped to the bayside, congrats, chances are very likely you're the creamy filling (aka the solo slot filler) in a mainly premade roster.


All the maps fill their queues this way:

• On River city, the premades fill bayside first, pugs balance to the pad next, solos then fill gaps
  
• On Forrest Colony, the premades fill the high side first, and the pugs the sandbar side.
  
• On the Frozen City, the premades fill the hilly side (with the tunnels to their right) first.
  
• On Caldera, the premades queue into the refinery side first.

Its just PGI's array handling code.

Edited by Hillslam, 28 January 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

If the match starts out with SQUAWK spam, you know that you're up against a premade of Skye's Rangers.

[Serapth]

Tarman, on 28 January 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Thanks for being a mild example of the smacktalkers I mentioned.

See, I will openly admit that PUGs have a higher proportion of idiots, team killers, suicidal chargers and complete newbies. That said, the premade side of equation certainly has the majority of asshats.

I would say that pugs QQ more, but that simply isnt true... look at whine threads over DC kill credits... or any thread about 8mans. The QQing is just about different things.

[Tarman]

Trauglodyte, on 28 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

If the match starts out with SQUAWK spam, you know that you're up against a premade of Skye's Rangers.

Seen that before. That kind of chatterspam is entertaining.

And yeah Serapth, I'm not sticking up for glueheads or asshats on either side, they both need to shut their holes so that real players both unit and pug varieties, can get game issues sorted out without so much noise-to-signal. There should be enough of us but the mouths on these guys are LOUD.

Edited by Tarman, 28 January 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Bluescuba]

Serapth, on 28 January 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

On the topic at hand, I do believe load order very much indicates a premade. When you have 6 people on one side, but 2 on the other... watch the outcome of the match. Ive seen landslides enough when it occurs that I firmly believe it is an indicator. I have also seen it enough on my side ( where we have 6 or so people on our side, to their 2 ), that I simply ask if we have a premade... and I would say 90% of the time we do.

However, I have a really good ping, so it might not be the same for everyone.

Load order has nothing to do with being in a premade. In many matches some of the my lance will load in but we will sit and wait almost to the end of the countdown for the last member to get in. Also there have been many times when I have dropped in a 3 - 6 vs 8 with our side being down even though we have a partial premade.

Edited by Bluescuba, 28 January 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Kobold]

Tarman, on 28 January 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Thanks for being a mild example of the smacktalkers I mentioned.

If you consider that "smacktalk" you must have pretty thin skin, or a much higher opinion of the average gamer than some of us do.

[Dovvol]

Bguk, on 28 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Only way to tell is by the score. If your team lost, then you faced a premade. If the score was 8-0 or 8-1(I think that's the cutoff), then it was a double premade.

This is not always true. Many times I've been in a Pug group and gone against a premade and stomped them 8-0. So trying to base if there is a premade on the other team off of score is just ignorant and sounds more like an excuse from your losses.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

My first and only contribution to the discussions of premade vs pug, hope this data helps clarify things... ( i know it wont )

When dropping as a group of 4 we win about 80-90% of the time with an average of 6 kills between us, mech setups are generally whatever people feel like, personally i frown on bringing more than 1 ECM mech, and bringing one with streaks and ECM is simply bad manners and if I can help it I wont have them in my lance at all.
LRM dedicated mechs are brought only for joke matches or if a bunch of Taggin hero mechs are used for saving money up for something and people dont have the spare time to play properly.

When we loose we most often get stomped, wether this is because of other premades i cannot say but sometimes they will identify themselves as such.

Several times upon start-up, another 4 man will make itself known, making our side 2x4 premades, in these matches we more often than not loose marginally, most often due to dissagreements on choice of strategy, or falling victim to the smug belief that all pugs are crap.

I do not participate in 8man drops simply because they are boring and repetetive, dropping as 4 you actually get to see some interesting builds and varied teams, in 8mans most of the time you will either run into the typical 800 tons + ECM cheese, pure lgiht ECM SSRM cheese, or worst of all mechashiva... I.E. No fun to be had there...


I am almost always top of the list on my team ( login wise ) i have a avg ping of 220ms, and a wicked system to play the game on highest awesomeness settings.
People in my team that have slower comps hit the bottom of that login list, so system speccs most def. is the cause and nothing to do with teams.