34 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

So apparently the AC/5 does better dps than the UAC/5 now? The 25% jam chance on the UAC/5 seriously makes it a terrible weapon.


AC/5 = 5 damage / 1.7 seconds = 2.94 DPS


UAC/5 = 1.47 DPS (math below)
10 damage / 1.65 seconds = 6.06 DPS without jamming
6.06 - (6.06 * 5 second jam duration) / (1.65 second cooldown * 4 shots before jam) = 1.47 DPS


Just by upping the jamming chance from 10% to 25% they reduced the DPS from 4.2 to 1.5. Seriously was that really necessary? Seems like a 15% jam chance would've been a more appropriate nerf (3.3 DPS).

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2013 - 07:26 PM.

[Ceesa]

Agreed. After so many jams, I've unequipped all of my UAC/5's. AC/5 seems to give me better results.

[Mike Silva]

25% jam chance? Who decided that that was a good idea?

[Panzerman03]

Or you can babysit the 1.1 second CD and not jam, giving you 4.55 dps if you do it perfectly. Ripple firing three UAC-5s (on an Ilya) rides the edge pretty well.

[Khobai]

Quote

Agreed. After so many jams, I've unequipped all of my UAC/5's. AC/5 seems to give me better results.

I switched mine out for LB10Xs and they work better LOL. UAC/5s are trash now.

Quote

Or you can babysit the 1.1 second CD and not jam, giving you 4.55 dps if you do it perfectly. Ripple firing three UAC-5s (on an Ilya) rides the edge pretty well.

They can jam on the first shot. So you cant do that.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[p00k]

your math is wrong
uac5 even with 5s jam at 25% jam chance has a long term dps of 4.25 (see the atlas thread for math)

[Trev Firestorm]

reliability vs the ability to quickly melt the face off any mech from 600m if you're lucky.

[ReD3y3]

It jams alot.

I dont know why they went from 10% all the way to 25%.

I would like to see 15-20% jam rate.

[Roughneck45]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

They can jam on the first shot. So you cant do that.

Not if you don't double tap.

It still has a faster recycle rate than an AC5, so if you never double tap, you can still have higher dps.

[Trev Firestorm]

Roughneck45, on 28 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Not if you don't double tap.

It still has a faster recycle rate than an AC5, so if you never double tap, you can still have higher dps.

the uac is bugged and sometimes doubletaps without delay and without an extra keypress or hold, and then it can jam so no its not something you can simply avoid.

[Khobai]

My math isnt wrong. The math in the Atlas thread is wrong. They omitted the fact that UAC/5s can jam on the first shot. Its been verified by multiple players including myself that it can jam on the first shot. Here is the thread to prove it.

http://mwomercs.com/...-on-first-shot/

[p00k]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

My math isnt wrong. The math in the Atlas thread is wrong. They omitted the fact that UAC/5s can jam on the first shot. Its been verified by multiple players including myself that it can jam on the first shot. Here is the thread to prove it.

http://mwomercs.com/...-on-first-shot/

your math is wrong
yes it can jam on the first shot
long term though it averages out, if you hold the trigger down so you always try to doubletap. your math assumes it always jams on the first shot

edit: to clarify, again, the bug means you can sometimes jam on the first shot. but it's still the same percentage. so if you extend it out, to where you still should get 3 successful doubleshots for each jam, it averages out

your fallacy is that you assume the jam on the early shot, and then calculate the dps shortly thereafter, ignoring the subsequent successful doubleshots that bring the overall average dps back up to over 4

Edited by p00k, 28 January 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[MasterGoa]

Panzerman03, on 28 January 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Or you can babysit the 1.1 second CD and not jam, giving you 4.55 dps if you do it perfectly. Ripple firing three UAC-5s (on an Ilya) rides the edge pretty well.

This.

Resist the temptation to jam the button and pace firel

3 UAC5 on an Ilya will give you 15 points every second.

That is 60 points in the face after 4 seconds.

It really works well...

[Khobai]

Again youre all missing the point. The entire purpose of ultra autocannons is that they fire twice. If youre not firing twice with them because it turns them into worse AC/5s then something is VERY wrong with the weapon. You should not have to tap the button or exploit/abuse the system just to get the UAC/5 to work like it should. It's like people who used macros to unjam the UAC/5 before... it was just a bad idea from the start.

Fixing the UAC/5 is easy. It should just have a mode selector that switches between normal and ultra firing modes. In normal mode it should fire just like a standard AC/5. In ultra mode it should fire twice as fast a standard AC/5 with a 15% jam chance each shot. Simple as that.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[Roughneck45]

Trev Firestorm, on 28 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

the uac is bugged and sometimes doubletaps without delay and without an extra keypress or hold, and then it can jam so no its not something you can simply avoid.

This is a bug though, not the norm.

The UAC5 is still a stronger weapon. Not by a huge margine, but it is better.

[Trev Firestorm]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Again youre all missing the point. The entire purpose of ultra autocannons is that they fire twice. If youre not firing twice with them because it turns them into worse AC/5s then something is VERY wrong with the weapon.

UAC/5s should simply have a mode selector that switches between normal and ultra firing modes. In normal mode it should fire just like a standard AC/5. In ultra mode it should fire twice as fast a standard AC/5 with a 15% jam chance each shot. Simple as that.

Even in single its a better weapon if only for the slight range increase...

[Khobai]

Quote

long term though it averages out, if you hold the trigger down so you always try to doubletap. your math assumes it always jams on the first shot

No it doesnt. My math assumes it jams every fourth shot. Which is what 25% is. 1 in 4. derp.

I will explain my math so you understand it better.

First I calculated how much DPS the UAC/5 did without jamming (6.06 DPS)

Next I calculated how much DPS was lost when the UAC/5 jammed (6.06 DPS * 5 seconds)

Lastly I calculated how many seconds the UAC/5 had to fire for in order to jam (4 shots to jam * 1.65 cooldown)

Then I just took the total DPS minus the DPS lost from jamming divided by the number of seconds the UAC/5 had to fire before a jam occured.

Theres nothing complicated about it. Its simple math. geez.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Pros:
Better base DPS than an AC/5 (or AC/10).
Ability to fire at 2x rate with small chance of jamming.
Highest DPS of any weapon in the game.

Cons:
Weighs one ton more than AC/5
Occupies one more critical slot than AC/5

I'd say the U/AC 5 has pretty much all the advantages.

[p00k]

just redid the math assuming you jam on the first shot, then thereafter you jam once every four doubletaps

over 300 seconds of continuous doubleshooting, immediately resuming doubleshooting when you unjam, your average dps is 3.99

yes you get more dps by single firing the uac5
but even if you don't, and constantly try to doublefire, in the long run you'll do the same dps as an ac2 or ac10

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Not it doesnt. My math assumes it jams every fourth shot. Which is what 25% is. 1 in 4. derp.

which is why you're wrong
your math assumes it jams every fourth shot. which means a 50% jam rate. derp
in reality it jams every 8th shot, because it's a 25% to jam on the doubletap
a bug is a bug, not the norm. you can't assume it will roll for the 25% chance to jam EVERY single initial shot. derp

edit: to clarify for the mathematically challenged, it's supposed to jam once every 4 DOUBLETAP attempts. in 4 shots you only attempt to doubletap twice. so if you're jamming every 4 shots, you're jamming every 2 doubletap attempts, meaning you have a jam rate of 50%. so yes, if the jam rate is 50% like you're calculating, then certainly it would be an awful weapon

Edited by p00k, 28 January 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[p00k]

now of course the bug won't only happen once, so the question is how often does the bug happen?

if it bugs every single time, then yes you effectively now have a 50%-on-doubletap jam rate. but it doesn't

if it never bugged, then you'd have a true 25%-on-doubletap jam rate. but some people (probably lag and the ballistic delay come into play here) will bug some. so they won't get the full 4dps

so your true dps, which depends on how often you get the bug, which likely depends on things like your internet connection and the server load, is somewhere between that 1.5 and 4, according to how often you encounter the bug

Edited by p00k, 28 January 2013 - 08:03 PM.