34 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

your math assumes it jams every fourth shot. which means a 50% jam rate. derp

No. 50% jam rate is 1 in 2. When you flip a coin, which we can hopefully agree is 50/50, there are only two possibly outcomes, not four, lmao.

25% is 1 in 4. if you have a four sided dice and roll it the chance of getting a 1 is 25%.

Im not sure where you learned probability from.

[p00k]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

No. 50% jam rate is 1 in 2. When you flip a coin, which we can hopefully agree is 50/50, there are only two possibly outcomes, not four, lmao.

25% is 1 in 4. if you have a four sided dice and roll it the chance of getting a 1 is 25%.

Im not sure where you learned probability from.

again
it's 25% on doubletaps
not 25% on all shots

you're only supposed to roll for jam on the doubleshot attempts, not the attempts when you've let the cooldown finish

edit
in big bold letters this time
The intended jam rate is 25% on doubletap attempts. 1 in 4 doubletap attempts. The non-doubletap attempts have a 0% chance to jam. So for every 4 doubletap attempts you also get 4 guaranteed non-jamming shots. The bug, again, is a bug, not the norm. It does not happen every single time as you assume

Edited by p00k, 28 January 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[AquaCXVII]

just you the uac5 is still good but maybe 20% would be good

[Khobai]

Correct. Ideally it should only roll for jamming on the second shot. Thats how it works in battletech. Thats how it should work in MWO. But sadly the ideal version of how it works is not how it actually works in MWO. It can in fact jam on the first shot. Weve been over this already. I linked a thread where numerous people corroborated that it happens. I myself have also experienced it jamming on the first shot and can attest to that fact.

[p00k]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Correct. Ideally it should only roll for jamming on the second shot. Thats how it works in battletech. Thats how it should work in MWO. But sadly the ideal version of how it works is not how it actually works in MWO. It can in fact jam on the first shot. Weve been over this already. I linked a thread where numerous people corroborated that it happens. I myself have also experienced it jamming on the first shot and can attest to that fact.

and as I said, that's a bug. it's not the intended function. it's not what they mean when they say it has a 25%-on-doubletap jam rate. and most importantly, it does not happen with every attempt. We've been over this already.

in the thread you yourself linked they mention possibilities of why the bug occurs

i've gone entire matches, single firing only, and never jammed, not even once. which similarly proves that the bug does not occur every single time.

how often you run into the bug will determine if your de facto dps is closer to 4, or closer to 1.5. but no one gets the bug every time, unless you're playing from a dialup connection in australia

[Carrioncrows]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

So apparently the AC/5 does better dps than the UAC/5 now? The 25% jam chance on the UAC/5 seriously makes it a terrible weapon.


AC/5 = 5 damage / 1.7 seconds = 2.94 DPS


UAC/5 = 1.47 DPS (math below)
10 damage / 1.65 seconds = 6.06 DPS without jamming
6.06 - (6.06 * 5 second jam duration) / (1.65 second cooldown * 4 shots before jam) = 1.47 DPS


Just by upping the jamming chance from 10% to 25% they reduced the DPS from 4.2 to 1.5. Seriously was that really necessary? Seems like a 15% jam chance would've been a more appropriate nerf (3.3 DPS).

You sir are out of your ever loving mind.

There is no way the AC5 is even remotely a better weapons. It has the worst DPS of any of the balistic weapons and I am including the machinegun. Seriously, stack up 8 machineguns and 1 ton of ammo = still more DPS than the AC5.

The UAC5 has a cycle time of 1.1 secs compared to 1.7s

AC5 - DPS = 2.94
UAC5 - DPS = 4.54
UAC5 Double Time - DPS = 9.09

Saying the AC5 is better than the UAC5 because you overtax the gun itself and jam it is just plain silly.

Even single fire the UAC5 almost doubles the DPS of the AC5 and triples it when you do double rate of fire. You don't have to use double rate of fire.

Here is a tip. = click it.
Just one click please. Wait. Click it again.
Only when you are relatively safe or in a extreme situation do you want to go double rate of fire to the UAC5 because there is a chance to jam when you need it most.

So don't jam it except in those situations.

But the AC5 is no where close to being better than anything.

[p00k]

Carrioncrows, on 28 January 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

Here is a tip. = click it.
Just one click please. Wait. Click it again.
Only when you are relatively safe or in a extreme situation do you want to go double rate of fire to the UAC5 because there is a chance to jam when you need it most.

khobai's point is that sometimes it can bug out, and jam even when you purely single fire

his assumption, however, is that this means the game gives single fired shots a roll for jam

if that were the case though, people who single fire only should, in the long run, jam every 4 single-fired shots

they do not

therefore we can conclude that the nature of the bug is NOT that single fired shots have a roll to jam chance

instead, my suspicions are that the game checks for your initial shot to see if you fired your singlefire shot, but the magic packet loss gods say "nope he totally didn't", but the other packet loss gods say "actually that packet saying the player clicked his mouse was for his doubletap" and roll for the chance to jam, therefore SOMETIMES but not always the game mistakenly rolls for jam on your singlefired shots.

but again, this is sometimes, not always

[El Bandito]

I can do single firing with my Atlas' dual UAC5s without jamming, ever. No need for any scripts. The trick is chainfire and a certain laser weapon. Hold down the mouse button and enjoy the ride.

UAC5s are miles ahead of regular AC5 even in single fire.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 January 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[HiplyRustic]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

My math isnt wrong. The math in the Atlas thread is wrong. They omitted the fact that UAC/5s can jam on the first shot. Its been verified by multiple players including myself that it can jam on the first shot. Here is the thread to prove it.

http://mwomercs.com/...-on-first-shot/

Yes they can jam on the first shot. Happens in my Ilya. I still use them because when they don't jam they are hella fun.

[Ravn]

I've attempted to run a macro off of my joystick to cycle .2 seconds past the non-jamming sequence. It still jams. If I decrease the cycle time anymore the dps/ton falls under the AC5. I fire in groups so chain fire doesn't fit my play style. Would love for this to get nailed down.

[Mr 144]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

10 damage / 1.65 seconds = 6.06 DPS without jamming

Where is this number coming from? Re-cycle time of UAC/5 is 1.1 seconds, making base no-jam DPS 9.09.

And p00k's math is correct.

More importantly, playstyle can overcome some of the jamming negatives. If more than 1 UAC is jammed on the Ilya, it's time to re-position while the multiple jams clear, thus not directly lowering DPS as in most fights, it is not advised to remain stationary for any length of time. What you need to do, is calculate Peak Burst DPS (which is wear they shine). Any Ilya Pilot knows with absolute certainty that 3xUACS beat 3xAC5s when used properly.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 28 January 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So, is the goal to pretty much force players into boating builds though? By making UAC5s jam more frequently you make them more complex to babysit to use effectively and less reliable as a primary weapon unless you're.....

boating it. A 3uac5 build on a cataphract can cycle it and use it pretty effectively. Any other build who tries to use it consistently and with bursts of additional damage is thus made less effective.

Truly the more I play the more I feel like I'm pretty much forced to get an ECM light with streaks, a 6x PPC stalker, a 2x AC20 Catapult or some other alpha strike build. Of all the weapons to 'balance' why does it keep being the DPS, non-boating weapons? Pulse lasers? Pfft. ER beam weapons? Pfft. LB10X? Pfft. UAC5? Meh, it's got its place.

6x6SRMs? WORKS LIKE A CHARM. You even have missile shields you can raise or lower. Massive LRM loadout? Get a TAG and rain the fire! LRMs are even more destructive here than they are in TT. 2xAC20s? Reliable, consistent, get to close range and shoot them in the face for a 1-shot kill. 6xPPCs in your Stalker? Accurate enough for a 6x headshot to insta-kill anything with a hittable cockpit!

I hate to rant. Truly I do. I just don't get the logic of the balancing process that seems actively trying to marginalize anything but alpha strike builds and ECM.

I don't want to be *that guy*. However, if I'm not *that guy* then I'm playing with one hand tied behind my back and it seems like the balancing that does come is geared towards making sure that knot keeping the hand behind my back is nice and tight.

[Jacmac]

Khobai, on 28 January 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

So apparently the AC/5 does better dps than the UAC/5 now? The 25% jam chance on the UAC/5 seriously makes it a terrible weapon.


AC/5 = 5 damage / 1.7 seconds = 2.94 DPS


UAC/5 = 1.47 DPS (math below)
10 damage / 1.65 seconds = 6.06 DPS without jamming
6.06 - (6.06 * 5 second jam duration) / (1.65 second cooldown * 4 shots before jam) = 1.47 DPS


Just by upping the jamming chance from 10% to 25% they reduced the DPS from 4.2 to 1.5. Seriously was that really necessary? Seems like a 15% jam chance would've been a more appropriate nerf (3.3 DPS).

The UAC5 has a cool down of 1.1 seconds vs 1.7 seconds for the AC5. Use a trigger macro or time your trigger pulls with good cadence and you will never jam a UAC5. In addition, your DPS will exceed what is possible with the AC5. There is no good reason not to use UAC5s if they can fit on the mech design. Three great mechs for the UAC5 are the Atlas D-DC (2), Ilya Muromets (3), and the Yen Low Wang (2).

[Khobai]

Quote

Where is this number coming from? Re-cycle time of UAC/5 is 1.1 seconds, making base no-jam DPS 9.09.

Correct. The recycle time is 1.1. But when you fire the second shot it resets the cooldown. The second shot fires about halfway through the cooldown of the first shot. The xml file says the volley delay is half a second so it should be around 1.6 for the cooldown.

And if they ever fix the bug where the UAC/5 jams on the first shot, its average DPS should go back upto around 4 DPS. That really needs to be fixed though.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[VXJaeger]

I've noticed that chainfire w/ button constantly pressed will jam UACs fast. They may even jam before single grenade leaves the gun, and I think that they shouldn't work like that.

I started using groupfire w/ sensitive finger, and jamming level dropped to reasonable levels.
Downside is, that UAC eats its ammo FAST. In a intensive combat even 200 ammo won't last long.

So "single fire mode" would be very appreciable, even if jam possibility at doubleshots stays in 25%.