100 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

False.

focuspark, on 28 January 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

Mechs exploding after being cored is fun in single player games, but it really sucks when it happens in multiplayer games. Nothing like punishing brawlers for doing their job. If mechs did massive explosions after being cored, all the short range weapons in the game would be... pointless.

MW:LL is Multiplayer and random Mech core explosions are fine in it. Seeing a mushroom cloud on the other side of 2x2 km (or more) map is quite awesome.

[canned wolf]

focuspark, on 29 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

If we're talking about just a big boom 2 - 5% of the time when a mech dies due to engine death, then sure why not, I can go along with it - so long as we're not talking about setting of a nuclear bomb.

What kinds of damage are we discussing to the nearby mechs? I think it should be no more than a single PPC hit spread out over the mech. Maybe 1-2 pts per section?

I would give it between 3 and 5 seconds of build up with an obvious graphical effect of some sort, then maybe 15 or 20 points of damage to all exposed sections within say 15 meters, with uniform falloff out to maybe 50? I would also apply heat to mechs withing the radius.

2-5% chance of explosion sounds pretty good to me. 5% gives you 1 in 20, which would be about once a match, 2% would give you once every other match. I might even go a little lower, just to make sure it can't be exploited.

Putting the ammo explosions over time back in would be cool too. We had them, and then they got yanked, not sure why.

Edited by canned wolf, 29 January 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

12th VR charge of the light brigade! All light charge into the middle of the enemy and get cored, all lights crit since they are from the 12th VR and the enemy is left with no armor and still facing the rest of the 12th in combat with not a scratch on them! God I miss those days!

[Max Fury]

General Taskeen, on 29 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

False.

MW:LL is Multiplayer and random Mech core explosions are fine in it. Seeing a mushroom cloud on the other side of 2x2 km (or more) map is quite awesome.

And would you believe the pilot survived by jumping into a lead lined fridge.

[Garth Erlam]

Idgit Galoot, on 29 January 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

I agree with it being rare, it could even be more prominent to certain models, or the way the player configured their heatsinks. The mech could even go through a cool animation of different pieces flying off warning everybody around that its going to blow, giving them time to get out of range. But I can understand where it could get frustrating, it would just half to be balanced like anything else.

Just my opinion here, but R(andom)N(umber)G(enerated) kills are terrible, and having a dead ally randomly nuke half your team, while amusing when witnessed from afar, is not cool from close range. Again though, this is just my opinion. I don't think that deaths that you couldn't have really avoided (don't be near team mates in-case they die!) are fun; I can avoid missiles, use cover, leg Ravens with ECM, pick off the Missile Pods of A1's before they get to me, etc. But I can't 'not' die to this, and I think it would be frustrating.

[Max Fury]

canned wolf, on 29 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I would give it between 3 and 5 seconds of build up with an obvious graphical effect of some sort, then maybe 15 or 20 points of damage to all exposed sections within say 15 meters, with uniform falloff out to maybe 50? I would also apply heat to mechs withing the radius.

2-5% chance of explosion sounds pretty good to me. 5% gives you 1 in 20, which would be about once a match, 2% would give you once every other match. I might even go a little lower, just to make sure it can't be exploited.

Putting the ammo explosions over time back in would be cool too. We had them, and then they got yanked, not sure why.

Instead of random, make is predictable, but rare.

Case in point: after the CT/RT/LT armor is depleted (assuming XL engines as well) you can do say an extra 20 points of damage before you breach the reactor. (Maybe add an extra 5 points per class type) Any damage that is done to the reactor after that point destroys the heatsync. The remaining heatsync acts as the fuse before the reactor goes. Give .25 seconds extra meltdown live time before the reactor breaches. The explosion type would really be a steam explosion, and anyone that knows what happens then coolant gets superheated and suddenly released, the effect might as well be a nuke.

So now reactors are predictable but rare events and the time to going off is variable and the effects are real.

[AsakuraZero]

STOP STACKPOLING THE GAME nuff said, just no.. in MW4 was kind of annoying.

ammo explotions.. may be nice, but think a bit, if collitions are back, you kick a light to the ground, this one was a heavy SSRM boy, and you as a brawler you are pretty close to it,and bam, the ammo explodes taking a leg out.

its not funny for the brawler, and people may exploid this (like always), some brawlers like me like hugguing to the enemies a bit so SRMs get a better hit on the target.

so i dont like the idea of stackpoling the game

[canned wolf]

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Just my opinion here, but R(andom)N(umber)G(enerated) kills are terrible, and having a dead ally randomly nuke half your team, while amusing when witnessed from afar, is not cool from close range. Again though, this is just my opinion. I don't think that deaths that you couldn't have really avoided (don't be near team mates in-case they die!) are fun; I can avoid missiles, use cover, leg Ravens with ECM, pick off the Missile Pods of A1's before they get to me, etc. But I can't 'not' die to this, and I think it would be frustrating.

If the blast radius, damage and time delay are set right then very few people die from an event like this. I don't know that I have ever gone down to a reactor explosion in MWLL. They train you to pay attention to your surroundings and not get too comfortable. They also teach you to keep a little distance between you and other mechs friend or foe. I think MWO could benefit from this, brawlers are pretty common, and there is a tendency to bunch up, which causes friendly fire, shoulder shooting, and frustration.

Random events are fine, as long as I don't have a random chance of getting killed by them. Just give warning and a little time to clear the area. It also has the effect of resetting any brawls in the area, causing brawlers to break off to avoid damage then reengage.

In response to Asakura, more power to you if you want to try and exploit an event that happens roughly 2% of the time when you destroy a mech.

Edited by canned wolf, 29 January 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Just my opinion here, but R(andom)N(umber)G(enerated) kills are terrible, and having a dead ally randomly nuke half your team, while amusing when witnessed from afar, is not cool from close range. Again though, this is just my opinion. I don't think that deaths that you couldn't have really avoided (don't be near team mates in-case they die!) are fun; I can avoid missiles, use cover, leg Ravens with ECM, pick off the Missile Pods of A1's before they get to me, etc. But I can't 'not' die to this, and I think it would be frustrating.

I haven't been killed once by a critical explosion in MW:LL. Its mostly there for the "Ooo, let's all look at the pretty explosion," moments.

Maybe some people want this because they want it to do insane damage to anyone surrounding the nukleur 'splosion, it doesn't need to do that. It can be in a Mech game for eye candy, with minimal AOE damage. Is it realistic? No, but I could care less, I am playing a Fiction game.

[blinkin]

Max Fury, on 29 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Instead of random, make is predictable, but rare.

Case in point: after the CT/RT/LT armor is depleted (assuming XL engines as well) you can do say an extra 20 points of damage before you breach the reactor. (Maybe add an extra 5 points per class type) Any damage that is done to the reactor after that point destroys the heatsync. The remaining heatsync acts as the fuse before the reactor goes. Give .25 seconds extra meltdown live time before the reactor breaches. The explosion type would really be a steam explosion, and anyone that knows what happens then coolant gets superheated and suddenly released, the effect might as well be a nuke.

So now reactors are predictable but rare events and the time to going off is variable and the effects are real.

if i am understanding this correctly large amounts of damage overflow on torso sections with engine criticals would be what cause reactor explosions?

this is an interesting approach, but we would need to watch out for high alpha builds that might take advantage of this. honestly my catapult c4 with 4x srm6+artemis would probably be first in line to take advantage of this. 60 points of damage on a single torso section is very likely to end with large amounts of over flow.

although it would be incredibly funny to murder a mech in the rear ranks of the enemy while they are not looking and then run away to watch it explode in their firing lines. but funny once does not mean fun all of the time.

[Astarot]

make a few points.

The first fission ("atomic") bomb test released the same amount of energy as approximately 20,000 tons of TNT

My next cool, watching a mech go up is rather amazing, and satisfying thing to watch.

second note, it really sucks being stuck in a /room/ with the person that is going critical

third note, this opens doors to suicide bombers. Lights getting just enough armor to get next to someone before the are /cored/ and then getting a free kill or causing mass chaos and confusion

Edited by Astarot, 30 January 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[blinkin]

Astarot, on 30 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

make a few points.

The first fission ("atomic") bomb test released the same amount of energy as approximately 20,000 tons of TNT

My next cool, watching a mech go up is rather amazing, and satisfying thing to watch.

second note, it really sucks being stuck in a /room/ with the person that is going critical

third note, this opens doors to suicide bombers. Lights getting just enough armor to get next to someone before the are /cored/ and then getting a free kill or causing mass chaos and confusion

except everyone who seems to be advocating this is saying they should be extremely rare. so your suicide bomber is probably going to die 10 times (at least) for every 1 time he manages to go critical.

[Hotthedd]

You can have your pretty explosions AND a small penalty for being too close AND avoid it becoming an exploit.

A fusion reactor breach does no (or minimal) physical damage to nearby 'mechs, BUT does release enough heat to be a deterrent to being right next to one.

[Roland]

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Just my opinion here, but R(andom)N(umber)G(enerated) kills are terrible, and having a dead ally randomly nuke half your team, while amusing when witnessed from afar, is not cool from close range. Again though, this is just my opinion. I don't think that deaths that you couldn't have really avoided (don't be near team mates in-case they die!) are fun; I can avoid missiles, use cover, leg Ravens with ECM, pick off the Missile Pods of A1's before they get to me, etc. But I can't 'not' die to this, and I think it would be frustrating.

Based on experience in Mechwarrior 4, you most definitely CAN avoid this type of effect.

It requires you to have situational awareness, and avoid being close to critically damaged mechs... and it requires that you hold fire on critical mechs before killing them, in order to allow your team to get clear.

[Bobzilla]

Lots of light befor the explosion for 3-5 seconds would be a warning, and mess with thermal/night vision. I think it would add something to the game. If someone is unable to move 90m in 3-5 seconds, secondary explostions are the least of your worries.

Make it rare, 5% chance maybe 2%, and do 10 to 20 damage to each area facing the explosion so if you were unable to avoid it you could at least mitigate it with your still armored parts.

As for the explosion debate, the engine falure could cause pressure, or eletrical energy build up to a failing point. The failing point is all that pressure, or energy being relased all at once causeing an explosion. It could happen if the mech ran off of mentos and coke.

[Kylere]

This would allow Kai Allard-Laio to kill mass Jade Wussies.

[HRR Mary]

Got to agree with Garth here : Having it happen once could be fun, on open matches, with no pressure. Once we get into more competitive matches (CW, leagues or whatever), this will suck big time. Even with a "Rare" occurence, given the number of matches we all play each day, it would happen regularly and would be boring in no time.

Hated it in MW4, as a single enemy mech had the ability to screw an entire team by trying to hug. Worse in MWO, you can "One Shot Kill" which was impossible in MW4 (headshots required two separate shots and hitboxes where bad). That means that even a fresh allied mech could explode on an unprepared team.

And don't get me started on the HighExplosive loaded mechs....

I'm all for eyecandy, not to the detriment of the game experience.

[Dragonslayer Ornstein]

As nice as pyrotechnic displays are, the mechs were never supposed to go critical. The mechs aren't supposed to go critical like they have in certain recent Mechwarrior games, and the exploding fusion reactor myth has also been nicknamed "the Stackpole" after the particular novel author who loved making his mechs go critical every time they were destroyed. Catalyst game labs went through the effort of writing a rather humorous multipage explanation of why the fusion reactor explosions don't actually happen in the Tech Manual in the section on the engines. The only time mechs exploded in that manner in the tabletop source material was from ammunition explosions, which are already in the game and already blow apart mechs. And they never did splash damage around them.

Edit: Source is page 36-37 in the Tech Manual, for those who are interested. The bit entitled "Fusion Engine Explosions: The Great Myth."

Edited by Dragonslayer Ornstein, 30 January 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Volthorne]

Dragonslayer Ornstein, on 30 January 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

As nice as pyrotechnic displays are, the mechs were never supposed to go critical. The mechs aren't supposed to go critical like they have in certain recent Mechwarrior games, and the exploding fusion reactor myth has also been nicknamed "the Stackpole" after the particular novel author who loved making his mechs go critical every time they were destroyed. Catalyst game labs went through the effort of writing a rather humorous multipage explanation of why the fusion reactor explosions don't actually happen in the Tech Manual in the section on the engines. The only time mechs exploded in that manner in the tabletop source material was from ammunition explosions, which are already in the game and already blow apart mechs. And they never did splash damage around them.

Edit: Source is page 36-37 in the Tech Manual, for those who are interested. The bit entitled "Fusion Engine Explosions: The Great Myth."

QFT.

However, there were entire-'Mech explosions in TT. Granted, YOU HAD TO HIT FOR ALL SIX ENGINE CRITS FOR A CATASTROPHIC EXPLOSION TO TAKE PLACE. ANYTHING LESS RESULTED IN A PUFF OF SMOKE.

I used excessive amounts of caps for the blind people who tend to skip important ****. Everyone else can read it as normal text.

[Elyam]

Garth, thanks for posting. I do disagree with you, however. I have to add support to those who've suggested it as a rare occurance and where the surrounding mechs get clear warning to get out of the blast radius and several seconds (6?) to do so. I really enjoy the mech destruction sequences in MWO, they look terrific. But I'd like to see the rare engine plasma/air detonation and also some pyrotechnics with ammo explosions and perhaps some other damage events. Nothing massively hollywood (any large pyro should be avoided or extraordinarily rare), just a chance for a few more types of desctruction visuals based on reasonable evaluations of what's occuring to the mech and its components. And eventually adding in pilot health and ejection would add alot of immersion as well.

Edited by Elyam, 30 January 2013 - 09:16 AM.