299 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Gulinborsti, on 30 January 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

I still fail to see the big issue with ECM, it is not breaking my game experience in any way (play in premades and PUGs).

ECM added a new tactical component and introducing counters adds even more flavour to the game.

Just for prooving my point to myself I created a missle boat with TAG yesterday and played a few rounds with premade 4 people teams and some PUGs.

In 70-80% of the premade AND PUG games I ended up in the top damage scores, sometimes even with the most damage.
I sure got wasted by some ECM Ravens occasionally and I am aware that this small test runs prove nothing.

Whether you are dropping with 4 man or pugging, you are still only facing pugs. The issue, at least in my case, is not whether or not ECM is beatable, but that ECM is not balanced. It has too many pros for so few cons. For only 1.5 tons it would be equipped on mostly everything, had it been available for every mech chassis. The game is currently centered around ECM. I know that I am not the only one that:

• starts every pug match, looking around to get stock of our ECM count.
  
• that feels obligated to bring either TAG, ECM or soon to be PPC
  
• rarely consider equipping LRM or SSRM

If you find that you regularly do some or all of the above things, then yes, ECM has too big of an impact.

Even PGI must now feels this way or they wouldn't be adding some kind of counter to ECM every couple of patches. This is because it is imbalanced and need to be toned down a bit. I will not be happy until PGI decides to treat the cause instead of the symptoms.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 January 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[hammerreborn]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Whether you are dropping with 4 man or pugging, you are still only facing pugs. The issue, at least in my case, is not whether or not ECM is beatable, but that ECM is not balanced. It has too many pros for so few cons. For only 1.5 tons it would be equipped on mostly everything, had it been available for every mech chassis. The game is currently centered around ECM. I know that I am not the only one that:

• starts every pug match, looking around to get stock of our ECM count.
  
• that feels obligated to bring either TAG, ECM or soon to be PPC
  
• rarely consider equipping LRM or SSRM

If you find that you regularly do some or all of the above things, then yes, ECM has too big of an impact.


Even PGI must now feels this way or they wouldn't be adding some kind of counter to ECM every couple of patches. This is because it is imbalanced and need to be toned down a bit. I will not be happy until PGI decides to treat the cause instead of the symptoms.

If you feel obligated to use TAG then find another mech to play. I've used it since release and have no issues incorporating it into all of my energy based loadouts as an easy heatless way to track my target to know if my lasers will contact or not.

[CancR]

I thought I was buying mechwarrior 5, but I got mechassult 3.

[StalaggtIKE]

hammerreborn, on 30 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

If you feel obligated to use TAG then find another mech to play. I've used it since release and have no issues incorporating it into all of my energy based loadouts as an easy heatless way to track my target to know if my lasers will contact or not.

That's not even a logical response to what I've posted. Shoo! Move along flamebait.

[b00zy]

yes I think so and then the TT dorks will stop trying to shove there dice rolling into a video game

neeeeeeerrrrrrrddddddddsssssss

[DocBach]

b00zy, on 30 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

yes I think so and then the TT dorks will stop trying to shove there dice rolling into a video game

neeeeeeerrrrrrrddddddddsssssss

how does balancing a real time game equate to dice rolling in any way?

[b00zy]

DocBach, on 30 January 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

how does balancing a real time game equate to dice rolling in any way?

exactly let me know when you find out

Edited by b00zy, 30 January 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[DocBach]

The ECM rules in the TT didn't have any dice rolling associated with them, so does that mean it can be put in real time?

[Orzorn]

DocBach, on 30 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

The ECM rules in the TT didn't have any dice rolling associated with them, so does that mean it can be put in real time?

MWO ECM is already a dice roll of whether you'll have more than them, and thus be able to use your streaks.

So if one was against dice rolls, TT implementation would have less chances involved.

Edited by Orzorn, 30 January 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[CancR]

Most TT players don't want a literal translation of TT to VG, but a correct translation, which would make the game far more balanced.

An example of this would be like EMC which in TT adds numbers to what you need to roll, would be in VG terms would be increasing the time the missiles have to lock on.

[Serapth]

How the ##$@# is this about pubbies vs premades, other than the OP being a ****?


Perhaps most telling is the people who always chime up about painting all premades with a wide brush... completely silent.


Telling that is.



Maybe with these changes people will stop QQing about 8mans and grow a pair. Doubtful that.

[b00zy]

CancR, on 30 January 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Most TT players don't want a literal translation of TT to VG, but a correct translation, which would make the game far more balanced. An example of this would be like EMC which in TT adds numbers to what you need to roll, would be in VG terms would be increasing the time the missiles have to lock on.

guys it was a joke... these forums I swear

[Serapth]

b00zy, on 30 January 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

guys it was a joke... these forums I swear

Hard to detect humour on the internets when one in three posts is by a lunatic.

[ak12546]

i think that this would only work with a lot of coordination and skill. i believe that you would have to assign people specific ECM targets and those people must consistantly hit them. usually those targets are lights so that makes it much harder. second you have to knock out all of the ecm at the same time or within 5 seconds of each other. now lets say one of those ECM ravens is behind a building and nobody can shoot him. you then have to move someone into position to hit them. i think that knocking out all ecm on an opposing team for 5 seconds would be a feat of strength which would likely take a lot of training. Then for each mech on EMP duty thats one less mech to focus on called targets. In my opinon it would probably be easier to not use PPC's. maby a better solution would be to add in class matching in 8 mans or to not allow the DDC to equip ecm. I could be wrong because there are a lot of factors involved. But i want ECM to be optional not required and i dont want to play who has the most SRM's and armor because that is a little boring

[StalaggtIKE]

CancR, on 30 January 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Most TT players don't want a literal translation of TT to VG, but a correct translation, which would make the game far more balanced.

An example of this would be like EMC which in TT adds numbers to what you need to roll, would be in VG terms would be increasing the time the missiles have to lock on.

Actually this is simple, yet genius. Far superior to the blanket null generated by ECM.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 January 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[Oinkage]

After thinking about the PPC changes that affect ECM, I don't think it will have a large impact on 8v8. Current 8v8 battle tactics dictate that you group up and have 3+ ECM mechs in your group, not counting scouts. So, to disable the ECM of the main body of a force, you would need to suppress ECM on 3 enemy mechs. That is going to take at least 3 dedicated players.

While you are doing that the enemy team is focusing their 6 mechs on your main body while your 3 focus their main body (since your other 3 are suppressing ECM on separate targets). You could slightly optimize this by focusing the ECM in the main body first so that your 3 + 1 ECM suppressor are focusing on a mech, but that still leaves you at a deficit of 2 mechs that are suppressing rather than focusing fire like theirs are.

It adds a little to the tactical meta game, but it still seems less optimal than just getting 3 DDC and 3 high DPS mechs behind them plus the two requisite 3Ls and ramming the 3 DDC and 3 DPS mechs down their throat. This is not an endorsement of what I think is fun, just what is known to be most successful.

If future match modes require dividing the mech ball up into smaller pieces, then this might work better, but right now it is not an effective 8v8 ECM ball counter.

I don't think it will have a huge impact on 4s or new PUGs either. I don't envision newbies starting MWO after Tuesday next week, and becoming gods with PPCs and totally shutting ECM down in a month.

Edited by Oinkage, 30 January 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Voidsinger, on 30 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

In what world are you living that everybody can use ECM?

It is like saying no mech or weapon is OP, because everybody can use it.

It is restricted to 5 mechs. 2 of which have the greatest amount of missile hardpoints in the light range, and the assault choice has 3.

Some mechs, like 3 of 4 Centurions can't carry a PPC, and can only have TAG if their sole energy weapon is a medium pulse laser max (and the YLW can't carry missiles).

And in terms of sensors, once again BAP is left the poor cousin, not getting the extended detection range of the sensor modules.

Uh..excuse me, really hate to interrupt you here, but..uh..what version of MWO are you playing where every single thing can be countered by every single Mech regardless of class, tonnage, loadout and/or directed design? I'm just curious because I'm not playing that version of MWO right now, and I haven't ever seen it through the closed beta to now, so, what, are you in that special testing group or something? Yeah..see...I didn't think so..

You are trying to impose the rules from some other game(think consoles) upon MWO, and in case you missed it(you obviously did), this game doesn't work that way. It's a team game with multiple roles for the team members to take, and if you pick a specific role, then that is your role, you aren't also good at all the OTHER roles, as that would totally defeat the entire point of having roles in the first place. I know, complicated stuff here, but see that's kind of the point of the differences in the Mechs, they can't all do the same thing, you decide which Mech you want based on what it can do while keeping in mind what it can NOT do..or that's how you should pick one, could be just me thinking tactically, I do that sometimes. If you want to counter ECM Mechs without using ECM, then you should pick a Mech that can carry the tools for the job, instead of picking a Mech that can only carry 1 of the possible tools and that's the tool you don't want to use in the first place, THEN complain that your Mech can't use the tools to counter ECM so there's something wrong with everything...seriously...that's like ALL kinds of jacked up thinking.

[Bguk]

b00zy, on 30 January 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

guys it was a joke... these forums I swear

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Hard to detect humour on the internets when one in three posts is by a lunatic.

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

How the ##$@# is this about pubbies vs premades, other than the OP being a ****?

Perhaps most telling is the people who always chime up about painting all premades with a wide brush... completely silent.

Telling that is.

Maybe with these changes people will stop QQing about 8mans and grow a pair. Doubtful that.

How true b00zy and Serapth, how true.

[Lykaon]

GroovYChickeN, on 29 January 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Well considering that the PUG players outnumber those l33t pre-made players like yourself, it would be safe to say their opinion matters more than yours. But by all means continue to be an ***...

If you mean PUG as meaning players who only drop solo and do not belong to an organized player created group that uses teamspeak or other VOIP option then I completely disagree.

This would be like asking someone who lives at the bottom of a hole in the ground what they think about the weather.They don't see weather they see hole.

However these "I33T" players (like myself) Play in premades that use VOIP.We have access to other players input and knowlege.We play in teams and try tactics and strategy that grants a much broader understanding of how all the little pieces fit together in actual practice.

In addition to all the premades I participate in I also PUG.I have shared that experience with other PUG players.I know what the PUG perspective looks like as well as the 4 man premade in pug drops perspective and of course the 8 man premade perspective.

I can tell you about the weather or inform you about holes.I actually get around and don't simply do one thing and draw conclusions based on speculation.


And as such my informed opinion is this PPC v ECM interaction seems forced and bandaidish.

I has the potential to further delute the varriety in MWo.

Potentially groups of players may wish to cement ECM dominance over their opposition and as a means of countering potential PPC disruption in ECM cover they will simply bring more ECM.

How much does it matter if one ECM mech ishit by a PPC if there are 7 others in the drop?

The enemy would need to hit all 8 mechs every 5 seconds with a PPC to concel ECM cover for that group.So in practice it isn't going to happen.

I personalyy see a group looking like this...

2 Raven 3Ls (med laser/streaks maybe a rare ER PPC instead)
3-4 Atlls DDCs (2 PPCs and either LRMs or brawler suplimental weapons)
2-3 Stalkers with 6 PPCs

So this will be the new "ballanced" 8 v 8 group.