299 replies to this topic

[Viper217]

Turning PPCs into another 'counter' to ECM isn't really fixing the issues with ECM. A tag does the same thing sans heat (or dmg) and noone jumped up and thought ECM to be fixed then, and I think it's the same now. ECM itself needs an adjustment, and I hope the devs are working on that too.

[MouseNo4]

People will cry regardless. Give them the world and they cry. Dont hand them the world, they cry.

Anyway, why should this matter to you?

[John Norad]

Silent, on 29 January 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

He's a Davion, it's a miracle he can even read this thread.

Stupid 'RP'-veiled personal insults when out of arguments, or too lazy to bring something constructive to the topic?
Must be a Liao.

See, it works both ways. However, I still don't understand what makes people post such rubbish. Upping the post count? Attention deficite? Just being part of the discussion? Not being left out?
And no, it's not funny and it certainly wasn't meant in jest. That argument doesn't fly.

[Henry Pride]

I wait for the first 3L with a PPC, 2 Streaks, ECM, BAP, Advanced Sensors... Hell yea, this will bei the flame thread of the year ^^

[Solis Obscuri]

hammerreborn, on 29 January 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

So your argument is that ECM is overpowered because one team will stack it and use focus fire and teamspeak and the other side are people on teamspeak but are completely rendered into mewling children sucking their thumb on the ground begging for the other team to stop beating them and just hide and hope the other team doesn't use the flail again because they can't get a square box around the other team and a letter.

I think even without ECM that 2nd team is hopeless. I know my group (4 man or 8) has never had issues shooting people with ECM and the 4 man doesn't even use ECM, and the 8 man has a single DDC and a cicada. We...get ready for this because it might surprise you...use tactics and communications, and even TAG to designate targets to fire at. And also get this, because it'll just blow your freaking mind...we also use heat vision to snipe. It's this mode that turns your screen blue and allows you to see the other team from ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the way on the other side of the map usually, and allows people to easily tell where the other team is going.


Also like how the argument is framed "what if one team is badass super champion 2500 ELO 8 atlas D-DCs and the other is a bunch of trial centurions playing their first game on Comstar TS3".

Sorry, I don't recall asking you to invent an easily defeasible straw-man argument to replace my own for sophistic purposes...

[Kenach]

John Norad, on 30 January 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

Stupid 'RP'-veiled personal insults when out of arguments, or too lazy to bring something constructive to the topic?
Must be a Liao.

See, it works both ways. However, I still don't understand what makes people post such rubbish. Upping the post count? Attention deficite? Just being part of the discussion? Not being left out?
And no, it's not funny and it certainly wasn't meant in jest. That argument doesn't fly.

People with 153135 posts have a much higher tendancy to use irony/sarcasm and they don't even realize they can annoy/hurt people. Don't take it seriously, this is the Internet.

To the OP : First, everyone whine about ECM, not just "pubbies", I have seen plenty of founders and merc corps complain about it. Second I think these changes are very good, and will make PPC a more valuable weapon, because right now it is statistically inferior to Large Lasers. I understand many people will disagree.

Edited by Kenach, 30 January 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[Rannos]

gavilatius, on 30 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

I think it's funny PGI is starting to herd ECM users into a niche pool.

Netcode drove most from Lights to assaults, PPCs will drive ECM Assaults to Mediums, More buffs will force ECM Mediums to heavies...

... and guess what?

...there are no ECM heavies

Played my 3L in 8s just fine last night. And by just fine I mean it turned into a molten slag heap like usual.

Also the people I know that play ECM assaults won't move to mediums that's just silly. They'll continue playing what they love, assaults (after wasting money on the PB of course). Also with the trench bucket around the corner and PB coming out soon too, I would not be predicting a rise in heavies

[Gulinborsti]

Voidsinger, on 30 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

In what world are you living that everybody can use ECM?

It is like saying no mech or weapon is OP, because everybody can use it.

It is restricted to 5 mechs. 2 of which have the greatest amount of missile hardpoints in the light range, and the assault choice has 3.

Some mechs, like 3 of 4 Centurions can't carry a PPC, and can only have TAG if their sole energy weapon is a medium pulse laser max (and the YLW can't carry missiles).

And in terms of sensors, once again BAP is left the poor cousin, not getting the extended detection range of the sensor modules.

Maybe I failed to make my point, how else could you completely miss it. Not being a native english speaker I assume that my english simply sucks, especially when I try to add some sarcasm.

The flaw in the ECM system was exactly this: ECM could only be countered by more ECM, which lead mainly to 2 things:

• Everyone rolled ECM mechs
  
• LRMs became completely useless

However, I think that the ECM system and it's implementation was basically fine, but not balanced against all mechs and weapon systems. But instead of nerfing ECM, introducing counters seemed the better idea and fortunately the DEVs took this direction instead of the nerf hammer.


The latest changes (TAG range improvement) and the upcoming PPC and sensor module changes are good improvements to balance ECM. Maybe there is still room for more and I totally agree that BAP should play a role in this too. There are more patches to come ...

Edited by Gulinborsti, 30 January 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Teralitha]

M A L I C E, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Oh I love the module thing.

This is going to be WONDERFUL.

PGI, you're doing it.

You're doing it right.

How are they doing it right? If they were doing it right, then ECM would also be... a module. A very large and expensive module and takes up 3 module slots.


Sorry... but no, they are doing it wrong.. ALL WRONG

Edited by Teralitha, 30 January 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Teralitha, on 30 January 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

How are they doing it right? If they were doing it right, then ECM would also be... a module. A very large and expensive module and takes up 3 module slots.


Sorry... but no, they are doing it wrong.. ALL WRONG

That would come dangerously close to making sense.

[mike29tw]

Gulinborsti, on 30 January 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Maybe I failed to make my point, how else could you completely miss it. Not being a native english speaker I assume that my english simply sucks, especially when I try to add some sarcasm.

The flaw in the ECM system was exactly this: ECM could only be countered by more ECM, which lead mainly to 2 things:

• Everyone rolled ECM mechs
  
• LRMs became completely useless

However, I think that the ECM system and it's implementation was basically fine, but not balanced against all mechs and weapon systems. But instead of nerfing ECM, introducing counters seemed the better idea and fortunately the DEVs took this direction instead of the nerf hammer.




The latest changes (TAG range improvement) and the upcoming PPC and sensor module changes are good improvements to balance ECM. Maybe there is still room for more and I totally agree that BAP should play a role in this too. There are more patches to come ...

PGI can introduce as many counters to ECM as they want. As long as ECM is the only perfect counter to itself, none of the other soft counters is going to make a difference.

Edited by mike29tw, 30 January 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Gulinborsti, on 30 January 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Maybe I failed to make my point, how else could you completely miss it. Not being a native english speaker I assume that my english simply sucks, especially when I try to add some sarcasm.

The flaw in the ECM system was exactly this: ECM could only be countered by more ECM, which lead mainly to 2 things:

• Everyone rolled ECM mechs
  
• LRMs became completely useless

However, I think that the ECM system and it's implementation was basically fine, but not balanced against all mechs and weapon systems. But instead of nerfing ECM, introducing counters seemed the better idea and fortunately the DEVs took this direction instead of the nerf hammer.





The latest changes (TAG range improvement) and the upcoming PPC and sensor module changes are good improvements to balance ECM. Maybe there is still room for more and I totally agree that BAP should play a role in this too. There are more patches to come ...

Honestly, I hate the concept of hard counters.
However given the ease of use of ECM, I could support BAP becoming a hard counter to ECM. It could counter the stealth aspect only. ECM other attributes will not be affected:

• It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.
  
• Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.
  
• Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 January 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[Yokaiko]

mike29tw, on 30 January 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

PGI can introduce as many counters to ECM as they want. As long as ECM is the only perfect counter to itself, none of the other soft counters is going to make a difference.

Exactly.

[Orzorn]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 January 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Honestly, I hate the concept of hard counters.
However given the ease of use of ECM, I could support BAP becoming a hard counter to ECM. It could counter the stealth aspect only. ECM other attributes will not be affected:

• It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.
  
• Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.
  
• Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.

If we need all these "counters", ECM should just be reduced in power.

Change several items in the game and introduce tons of modules vs... nerf the damn thing.

[Gulinborsti]

I still fail to see the big issue with ECM, it is not breaking my game experience in any way (play in premades and PUGs).

ECM added a new tactical component and introducing counters adds even more flavour to the game.

Just for prooving my point to myself I created a missle boat with TAG yesterday and played a few rounds with premade 4 people teams and some PUGs.

In 70-80% of the premade AND PUG games I ended up in the top damage scores, sometimes even with the most damage.
I sure got wasted by some ECM Ravens occasionally and I am aware that this small test runs proove nothing.

However, I guess this thread is all about whining and I am just to reasonable about the topic...

[fil5000]

Hey guys what's going on in this thread?

[Bguk]

fil5000, on 30 January 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Hey guys what's going on in this thread?

Some talk about pugs and premades.

[StalaggtIKE]

Orzorn, on 30 January 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

If we need all these "counters", ECM should just be reduced in power.

Change several items in the game and introduce tons of modules vs... nerf the damn thing.

It is a horrible route to take, yet it seems to be the only one PGI is willing to take.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 January 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Five oh Five Squat]

Pubbies will always cry about something.

[Silent]

John Norad, on 30 January 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

Stupid 'RP'-veiled personal insults when out of arguments, or too lazy to bring something constructive to the topic?
Must be a Liao.

Must be!