371 replies to this topic

[xRatas]

GalaxyBluestar, on 29 January 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

srm cats yeah they can be handled but ac40's blowing torsos and legs before it closes in and rips you up... a bit discouraging really. and that's from a awesome/stalker pilot.

Ac20 doesn't do that much damage from over 270m, and with decent Awesome or Stalker, you should be well able to disable AC20cat form 500m. It can not mount XL engine to go with those cannons, so it won't be that fast, just don't panic before it is inside 270m, and rotate your torso and keep moving. AC20 is not the easiest weapon to hit reliably on same spot if enemy moves.

[Cranky Poed]

Its fine..
just wish they would put those ballistic slots in the ears.

[Voidsinger]

I'd like to see them do something similar to what they did with the Catapult Arms, where if you placed a large weapon (4 or more crit slots) in a torso side, it would bulge very noticeably.

Fat Cats!

[Josef Nader]

Zylo, on 29 January 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

This sounds like another "I can't beat it so it needs to be nerfed" thread.

Catapults have an easy to hit head hitbox, easy to hit missile pods. Aim for these and their torso twist rate means nothing.


I can kill catapults easy by targeting these weak points and when I sometimes play a catapult I have to be very careful about these weak points because many players are aware of these weak points and target them.

If you're getting outbrawled by catapults maybe you need to look at your own mech designs.

If you're done *********** your ego, Zylo, tell me why I'd want to bring a 'Phract or Dragon on my competitive 8 man when I can have a splat cat, gausscat, or KC20. The cat can literally do everything those mechs can without any of their downsides. It's fast, it jumps, it boats like a champ, and it can fire almost directly behind it. I beat catapults all the time, no sweat. I can out-fight a splat-cat. I can beat a KC20. Most of these builds are only really worrisome if they get the drop on me. That doesn't mean that the catapult still isn't a little too good compared to the other options. Minmaxing players will squeeze every ounce of performance out of a chassis, and if they have the choice between a 'Phract with wonkey convergence and limited torso traverse and a Cat with perfect convergence and near unlimited torso traverse, they're going to go with the Cat.

This isn't about nerfing the Catapult so it can't do the things it's proven to be amazing at. It's just making it so that there is a narrower gap between it and the other heavies. As it stands right now, there is no build you can do on a 'Phract (aside from the 3 UAC5 Marmoset) that can't be done better on a 'Pult despite the 'Phract having 5 tons on the little kitty, and that's the complaint.

[xRatas]

Voidsinger, on 29 January 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

I'd like to see them do something similar to what they did with the Catapult Arms, where if you placed a large weapon (4 or more crit slots) in a torso side, it would bulge very noticeably.

Fat Cats!

That would be great, and I think they said somewhere that they want to include this. Just that there are much more important things to do first.

@Cranky Poed:
Changing ballistic hardpoints to arms would be quite a bit against the spirit of K2, as the stock K2 mounts ballistics on torso...

[Khobai]

Quote

just wish they would put those ballistic slots in the ears.

I like the idea of adding size restrictions to hardpoints.

Certain hardpoints, like the ballistic hardpoints on the K2, should be designated as "small hardpoints" and should only be able to mount weapons that weigh 6 tons or less. I don't see a problem with sticking AC/2s in the machine gun slots. But you shouldn't be able to use dual Gauss or dual AC/20 in machine gun mounts.

Same goes for the Stalker, its energy hardpoints should be designated as "small hardpoints" so it can't put PPCs in them (since PPCs weigh 7 tons). That way the Awesome gets its role back as a PPC boat.

Quote

Changing ballistic hardpoints to arms would be quite a bit against the spirit of K2, as the stock K2 mounts ballistics on torso...

One could also argue that sticking a gauss or an AC/20 into a machine gun mount is also quite a bit against the spirit of the K2 as well. The K2 is supposed to be a PPC mech afterall.

Edited by Khobai, 29 January 2013 - 11:26 PM.

[Brilig]

Cranky Poed, on 29 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Its fine..
just wish they would put those ballistic slots in the ears.

That would be nice except then they could add an XL engine into their cat. The only thing that keeps AC-20 Cats from being super dangerous is that they cant go very fast. If you could fit an XL engine in them there would be no escaping them.

Otherwise I would be down with that idea. Having the guns in the ears would make them easier to take out.

[TerebNeerg]

Cranky Poed, on 29 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Its fine..
just wish they would put those ballistic slots in the ears.

As a part-time K2 pilot, I wouldn't mind if the ballistic were moved to the ears so my gauss rifle stops popping my XL engine when it gets sneezed on.

[xRatas]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

This isn't about nerfing the Catapult so it can't do the things it's proven to be amazing at. It's just making it so that there is a narrower gap between it and the other heavies. As it stands right now, there is no build you can do on a 'Phract (aside from the 3 UAC5 Marmoset) that can't be done better on a 'Pult despite the 'Phract having 5 tons on the little kitty, and that's the complaint.

There I would also agree, only fun build I've come up with 'phract is 4X with 2x UAC5 and 2x AC5. They just generally suck (most to do with guns at the height of supposed balls). But I'd say buff the frankenmech and leave cat as it is.

Dragon has it's place IMO, ability to move fast is always useful, you need someone to chase down lights, go cap or def when needed, mess up enemy lines, and do everything annoying. One might say Raven 3L is still better in that job, but that again is about something else not being balanced. (Give ECM to Dragons...)

Edited by xRatas, 29 January 2013 - 11:29 PM.

[Tarman]

I think it's a powerful chassis but nerfing its basic design advantage seems not the right way to go about things. The big torso swing makes sense on that chickenwalker. And really it can be as much of a disadvantage as people have said. Kittie jocks have a choice of ears, face, or back to present to a target, so they can be declawed with two and killed with the other two. That seems a fair tradeoff for the range of motion.

I'm not even getting into the K2 (really, I don't own one) and the torso guns thing because it's already over. Ingame all the weapons are made by hundreds of manufacturers, so somebody makes a special K2 Torsonado line of large calibre ballistics somewhere. Centurion has one shield arm, K2 has two. Ingame I can also mount lots of completely lethal ballistics (plus lots of backup weapons) on any number of Atlai or Cataphracts without having 5-armour legs. There, fixed. Have fun Gausskitties, no guilt. You need all that extra arm soak to shield those puppies now anyway.

[xRatas]

Khobai, on 29 January 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

One could also argue that sticking a gauss or an AC/20 into a machine gun mount is also quite a bit against the spirit of the K2 as well. The K2 is supposed to be a PPC mech afterall.

There I agree you completely, I refuse to mount anything bigger than AC5 to shoot from those tiny weapons. And I do mount either PPCs or large lasers in the arms. Seems like I'm the only one here though. What I mean't, was that stock K2 would be impossible to build then.

Still, it doesn't really make AC20 cat overpowered. It just makes it able to hit hard from close range, and be useless over 540m.

edit: I also consider my ERPPC, PPC, 2x AC5 K2 better than either dual Gauss or Dual AC20 build. But that's just me.

Edited by xRatas, 29 January 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[Zylo]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

If you're done *********** your ego, Zylo, tell me why I'd want to bring a 'Phract or Dragon on my competitive 8 man when I can have a splat cat, gausscat, or KC20. The cat can literally do everything those mechs can without any of their downsides. It's fast, it jumps, it boats like a champ, and it can fire almost directly behind it. I beat catapults all the time, no sweat. I can out-fight a splat-cat. I can beat a KC20. Most of these builds are only really worrisome if they get the drop on me. That doesn't mean that the catapult still isn't a little too good compared to the other options. Minmaxing players will squeeze every ounce of performance out of a chassis, and if they have the choice between a 'Phract with wonkey convergence and limited torso traverse and a Cat with perfect convergence and near unlimited torso traverse, they're going to go with the Cat.

This isn't about nerfing the Catapult so it can't do the things it's proven to be amazing at. It's just making it so that there is a narrower gap between it and the other heavies. As it stands right now, there is no build you can do on a 'Phract (aside from the 3 UAC5 Marmoset) that can't be done better on a 'Pult despite the 'Phract having 5 tons on the little kitty, and that's the complaint.

I was in ELP Nader, you weren't anywhere near competitive... something about having fun and not caring about serious gameplay if I recall. I can't imagine why you would be interested in competitive 8-man builds.


You wouldn't have posted this thread unless you had a serious problem fighting catapults. Now you claim you can beat them all the time, so what the **** is your problem with the catapult if you really can beat them all the time? Is your post starting this thread just a bunch of exaggerated BS because some other players can outpilot you and they happen to be playing a catapult?

If you can't see the downsides of the catapult you aren't looking hard enough. The catapult has been around far longer than many mechs, it makes sense that most players would choose a chassis they know very well after extensive testing in closed beta vs a newer chassis like the cataphract which can easily beat the **** out of a catapult in a brawl if the cataphract pilot has any piloting skill.

I've actually been testing the cataphract and find it far better for brawling than the catapult. The catapult has the advantage with short range builds when used for ambushing other mechs as the builds generally tend to be faster. If these ambushing catapults are spotted they die very easy with a few easy shots to the cockpit.

[Khobai]

Quote

I've actually been testing the cataphract and find it far better for brawling than the catapult.

I have to disagree. A Catapult A1 is pretty much the most dangerous brawler in the game aside from maybe the Stalker 3F/5M. You could make a convincing argument that the A1 is better than the Stalker because of its torso twist radius.

[Tarman]

Zylo, on 29 January 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

I was in ELP Nader, you weren't anywhere near competitive... something about having fun and not caring about serious gameplay if I recall. I can't imagine why you would be interested in competitive 8-man builds.


You wouldn't have posted this thread unless you had a serious problem fighting catapults. Now you claim you can beat them all the time, so what the **** is your problem with the catapult if you really can beat them all the time? Is your post starting this thread just a bunch of exaggerated BS because some other players can outpilot you and they happen to be playing a catapult?

If you can't see the downsides of the catapult you aren't looking hard enough. The catapult has been around far longer than many mechs, it makes sense that most players would choose a chassis they know very well after extensive testing in closed beta vs a newer chassis like the cataphract which can easily beat the **** out of a catapult in a brawl if the cataphract pilot has any piloting skill.

I've actually been testing the cataphract and find it far better for brawling than the catapult. The catapult has the advantage with short range builds when used for ambushing other mechs as the builds generally tend to be faster. If these ambushing catapults are spotted they die very easy with a few easy shots to the cockpit.

You can throw some nasty stuff into the Catas to produce good frontline builds; and usually with guns that still have good range when needed for hill-clearing and such despite gearing primarily for face-peeling. I need to paint them red, they're proper dakka.

[Zylo]

Khobai, on 29 January 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

I have to disagree. A Catapult A1 is pretty much the most dangerous brawler in the game aside from maybe the Stalker 3F/5M. You could make a convincing argument that the A1 is better than the Stalker because of its torso twist radius.

It's only dangerous if you let it surprise you since it has very high burst damage. A good team won't rush up to brawl with the A1, but a very disorganized pug team might have more problems being jumped by a sneak A1 pilot.

The ballistic weapon loads of many cataphract builds can pick apart the A1 before it can get in range. Many A1 pilots also like to strip leg armor, so if you don't have a good line of sight to the head, hitting the legs that are often filled with ammo can quickly drop the A1 before it has a chance to do any serious damage.

The stalker can be deadly against slower targets due to it's firepower but it's easily outmanuvered. Usually I see stalker brawlers picked apart from long range so they generally aren't a serious threat unless they manage to sneak up on you.

[Parnage Winters]

Deamhan, on 29 January 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Put size restrictions on the hard points. With regards to the A1, if they first changed the slot usage of the SRMs to one for the SRM 2, two for the SRM 4 and three for the SRM 6. Then, if they place a three slot restriction on one hard point, a two slot on the second and a one slot on the third, the most you can have is....

LRM 30 (I'm not even sure what the most you could have before was)
SRM 12 (Instead of a SRM 18)
SSRM 6 (Same as before)

The K2 should have its ballistic hard point relocated to the arms.

Combine those changes with the fact that the arms on the Cat are easy enough to shoot off, this should tune it down a bit.

The Cat isn't the only mech that can benefit from weapon size restrictions on hard points.

Completely overhauling how mech hardpoints work yeah that's not an "all you need to do.." kind of solution.

Amusingly enough your idea to the k2 actually makes gauss wielding catapults stronger. Now they can shoot up or down with far more ease then currently. Also a rifle explosion will not blow up into the xl engine. So huzzah on your idea for a buff.

Love how Catapults can boat everything now according to folks. Yeaup quite the energy boat that max 4 energy point catapult. Lookit how many ballistics it can fit a whole two. The only decent arguement is srm6's getting 6 of them on one variant admittedly to also put artemis, ammo and get it to break 65kph you'll need to place in an XL or go with something akin to 4 srm6 and a pair of srm4 and even then you'll end up running hot.

Like every mech it has strengths and weaknesses but hey if you really think the catapult is the end all be all of mech's feel free to buy one and see for yourself the ups and downs of the machine first hand.

[Josef Nader]

So your argument breaks down to "I wouldn't post your observations as to the game's balance unless I was just terrible and wanted a nerf to make up for my lack of skill." Sure. Makes perfect sense.

I don't need to struggle to beat Cats to notice that they're just a little too good in the game's overall meta. I'm sorry that you think that balancing decisions need to be made in broad nerfs, or that the desire for balance is strictly because I get roflstomped by something and omg nerf nerf nerf. I posted a long, clearly defined list of observations about the current state of MWO and why I feel the Catapult is still the go-to choice for heavy mechs. Nowhere in there do I complain about dying to catapults, or that the catapults are "OP" and need major nerfs. All I said was that the Cat is still a better choice than a Dragon or a Phract (or, indeed, a Jagermech) to fill a heavy slot on everything from a solo pug to an 8 man competitive, and I offered a very simple solution to make the Catapult less dominant. It does nothing to hurt the Cat's firepower potential, or it's ability to be awesome in a brawl. All it does is make it so that other mechs compare to the Catapult and expand the number of desirable or viable choices in the game.

I'd like there to be a serious toss-up between a gaussaphract or a gaussapult, but right now there just isn't. 5 extra tons just doesn't make up for the 'Phract's weaknesses in the face of the Cat. There's no other heavy chassis that can hold a comparable 90 point alpha strike. Do I think it's wrong that the Cat can do that? Not a bit. Do I think that it's wrong that the Cat can do that and also turn better than mechs who lack the Cat's firepower but supposedly make up for it in maneuverability (like our current mediums)? Yes. It's a little silly that a second-line fire support chassis can out-twist main-line infighter mechs, and it's a big part of what makes the Cat so good.

None of this has to do with my personal ability to take down Catapults, nor, indeed, does it really hinge on anyone else's. The fact of the matter is that I feel like people still choose the Cat over any other mech because the Cat is just better than any other mech, and it's massive torso traverse is a big part of that. Tone that down a few shades and the Cat stops being the the undisputed king of the heavyweight chassis.

Edited by Josef Nader, 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[xRatas]

Khobai, on 29 January 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

I have to disagree. A Catapult A1 is pretty much the most dangerous brawler in the game aside from maybe the Stalker 3F/5M. You could make a convincing argument that the A1 is better than the Stalker because of its torso twist radius.

One could also make a decent argumet, that more mobile mechs are supposed to be better brawlers. If you use slow mech, it should have long range weapons. I do have lot of fun in shooting brawler stalkers from 500 meters when they can only try to charge over open (being too slow to get me) or run for cover, again being slow and taking a lot of damage. On the other hand, Stalker filled with long range weapons and co-operating with his team is truly scary sight.

[Super Mono]

Parnage, on 29 January 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Completely overhauling how mech hardpoints work yeah that's not an "all you need to do.." kind of solution.

Amusingly enough your idea to the k2 actually makes gauss wielding catapults stronger. Now they can shoot up or down with far more ease then currently. Also a rifle explosion will not blow up into the xl engine. So huzzah on your idea for a buff.

Love how Catapults can boat everything now according to folks. Yeaup quite the energy boat that max 4 energy point catapult. Lookit how many ballistics it can fit a whole two. The only decent arguement is srm6's getting 6 of them on one variant admittedly to also put artemis, ammo and get it to break 65kph you'll need to place in an XL or go with something akin to 4 srm6 and a pair of srm4 and even then you'll end up running hot.

Like every mech it has strengths and weaknesses but hey if you really think the catapult is the end all be all of mech's feel free to buy one and see for yourself the ups and downs of the machine first hand.

What downsides? Other than someone being too stupid to not twist away from an enemy mech to keep the cockpit out of sight of the an enemy's weapons? Something that's incredibly easy to do because of the best torso-twist in the game?

[Zylo]

Tarman, on 29 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

You can throw some nasty stuff into the Catas to produce good frontline builds; and usually with guns that still have good range when needed for hill-clearing and such despite gearing primarily for face-peeling. I need to paint them red, they're proper dakka.

The 4x has some advantages with the ballistic weapons in the arms which makes them quite effective at hitting targets higher or lower than what a catapult would be able to hit. The 2x is good as well but a little lighter on the ballistic firepower.