371 replies to this topic

[Elkarlo]

The actual Problem in balancing the Heavy is not extreme Torsotwist of the Catapult,
but that some Designers at PGI putting Looks over Substance.

The DRG-1C is a very good counter to any Cat, it can outmanouver and kill every Cat build out there.
The Flame was the same till they reduced the Missleslot to the "proper" 5 Tube launcher for the looks... now the SRM6 is nearly everywhere downgraded to a SRM4 and its far harder to kill now Cat's with it as the Burst damage goes down from 135 to 120.

So one very common and good Cat hunter down.

The Phract was/is an extremy good Cat Hunter, especially the 4X variant with it good Arm movement and heavy Weapons in the Arms... WWAAAIIIT
The Arm had been clipping into the Torso, it looked bad, no problem reduce the Arm movement, it won't affect Gameing in big Matter...

The Cat didn't have Graphical Issues and wasn't nerved for looks over Substance.
Thats the Reason why it's dominant.
Give the Phract the Clipping Arms back and greater Arm movement, and in every Circlecombat a
Phract will Tear a Splatterpult into Pieces.
Then there would be far more Cat Hunters out there, problem solved.

(Btw my favourite Mech's are the Flame and my CPLT-C1(f) so it would hurt me too when the Phract
will be stronger in movement again)

Edited by Elkarlo, 30 January 2013 - 12:36 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Khobai, on 30 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

uh PGI nerfed gauss because it was OP. derp.

yes, if it was the cat, they would have nerfed IT instead...it was the gauss that had too few weaknesses... though i don´t like the way they nerfed it, additional weakness was a good thing...but that´s another topic...

so maybe if people cry enough they might nerf the srm´s more.... uuuh how about a min range for SRMs? (not serious...)

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 30 January 2013 - 12:36 AM.

[Wrenchfarm]

The Cat does seem oddly strong for a supposed support mech. Not sure what you can do to bring it in line, but I'm willing to admit that some set-ups are so good they verge on broken.

I don't think anyone can look at the AC40 cat, the SRMCat, or the pre-ECM/pre-nerf StreakCat and honestly say they are totally comparable/balanced to what can be done with a Dragon or a Phract.

[Super Mono]

Zylo, on 30 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

The problem is that people lose to a specific mech that happens to sneak up on them (or a played by a better pilot) and cry "OMG!!! NERF TEH CAT!!!" as a result. This thread seems no different other than the way the nerf cry was concealed in the post.

I play Atlas, Stalker, Cataphract, Catapult, Centurion, Hunchback and Raven and I have no complaints about any specific chassis being too strong. Weapon balance is off a bit with some weapons but PGI is working on that.

So your entire argument for the Catapult being fine balance wise is an ad hominem?

[Adrienne Vorton]

Elkarlo, on 30 January 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

i took a splatterpult down in a lasercat... you know why? because SRMs are not streaks and it needs a good shooter to hit while circlestrafing... and because 6 srm 6´s overheat them very often...

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

So your entire argument for the Catapult being fine balance wise is an ad hominem?

the second part may be his personal experience...the first part is just true...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 30 January 2013 - 12:40 AM.

[Zylo]

Wrenchfarm, on 30 January 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

The Cat does seem oddly strong for a supposed support mech. Not sure what you can do to bring it in line, but I'm willing to admit that some set-ups are so good they verge on broken.

I don't think anyone can look at the AC40 cat, the SRMCat, or the pre-ECM/pre-nerf StreakCat and honestly say they are totally comparable/balanced to what can be done with a Dragon or a Phract.

2 out of those 3 builds you listed are missile based. Cataphracts and dragons can't compete at all without the same missile hardpoints.

Hardpoint location also plays a part. If players were able to remove actuators and lock parts of the arms I am certain you would see players trying a 3x AC/20 Ilya (some already run 3x UAC/5 and I think the 3x gauss is at least possible).

[Tarman]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Twist to make him waste that shot and then unload on him. The cat pilot should always be able to give a choice on what armor to take that hit on with it's great torso twist.

-Can't move arms (countered by good torso twist range)

Entirely negated as you pointed out.

-Almost always severe heat problems (excluding gausscat, but that has exploding guns)

All mechs overheat, we're talking specifically about how the Catapult's inherent characteristics are balanced against other mechs.

-Usually severe compromising in build: stripped armor, not much ammo, low speed. Or any mix of those.

Same as above, anyone can design any chassis to have this weakness.

One downside on the chassis is entirely negated, the other two can be mitigated by skillful twisting of the Catapult pilot to reduce hits on certain locations. With the wide range of motion the twist has the catapult pilot should be making full use of it.



The thread is about Catapults being overpowered because of their torso-twist. I would like to spend more time focusing on that rather than having people think "Well the mech still overheats and can't ravage me with SRMS from the 1KM out!" are valid arguments that the Catapult is fine.

I disagree that the torso twist gives the Catapult an advantage to the degree where it would need to be altered. It is not a feature that needs changing even if the chassis needed nerfing in the first place.

[Zylo]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

So your entire argument for the Catapult being fine balance wise is an ad hominem?

I used to be in the same corp with the guy who started this thread. A big part of his problem is playstyle and skill level.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Zylo, on 30 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

The problem is that people lose to a specific mech that happens to sneak up on them (or a played by a better pilot) and cry "OMG!!! NERF TEH CAT!!!" as a result. This thread seems no different other than the way the nerf cry was concealed in the post.

I play Atlas, Stalker, Cataphract, Catapult, Centurion, Hunchback and Raven and I have no complaints about any specific chassis being too strong. Weapon balance is off a bit with some weapons but PGI is working on that.

i'd never say nerf the atlas ddc cause that's the one that sneaks up the best and most often on me, but i have a shoot out with it cause the pilot has to manage seperate weapons, the k2 or a1 has stacked weapons in one group min/max alpha one shot wonders there. so much dps in one click.

a1's you can disable before you're wrecked cause the ears are relatively weak but the k2 not so...

[Zylo]

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 January 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

i'd never say nerf the atlas ddc cause that's the one that sneaks up the best and most often on me, but i have a shoot out with it cause the pilot has to manage seperate weapons, the k2 or a1 has stacked weapons in one group min/max alpha one shot wonders there. so much dps in one click.

a1's you can disable before you're wrecked cause the ears are relatively weak but the k2 not so...

Stalkers can pack even more firepower but it does come at the cost of extreme heat. It's more difficult to pick off their weapons compared to the A1 but they do tend to be very slow which gives some time to find cover if 1 of these stalkers does sneak up on you. I guess that's assuming the stalker doesn't just 1-shot you though.

[CECILOFS]

Catapults are not good brawlers. The torso twist is a benefit for sure, but the massive CT/head hit box, vulnerable arms and XL engine is a big drawback to being close in. Then consider that other mechs have arms that make up for the torso twist and allow you a greater firing arc.

Cat builds that want to get in close (6xSRM6, 2xAC20* etc) aren't so much for brawling as they are for surprise hit and run attacks. They have great burst but fall apart quickly if they take return fire, like in a brawl situation.

Besides, this may be a case of "Grass is greener". When running my Catapults I always feel Cataphracts are stronger...at least when they reduce me to slag within 5 seconds with Autocannons

*Conceptually I agree the AC20 is kinda dumb, but I don't cry nerf because you are making an extremely 1 dimensional mech which has a massive strength (high burst) but massive weaknesses to balance it (Must be point blank range, needs good aim, has to sacrifice to make room in term of weight/tonnage, low ammo). I've tried it but its not for me - largely because I can't aim in a brawl

Edited by CECILOFS, 30 January 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Zylo, on 30 January 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Stalkers can pack even more firepower but it does come at the cost of extreme heat. It's more difficult to pick off their weapons compared to the A1 but they do tend to be very slow which gives some time to find cover if 1 of these stalkers does sneak up on you. I guess that's assuming the stalker doesn't just 1-shot you though.

true so we both agree stalkers aren't a problem nor are assaults are a problem because they're supposed to be wittled down with more fast strikes or equal power brawling. yes 6ppc's stalkers are silly and they run a close second op cheese behind the k2. simply catapults were never suppsoed to out power atlas at close range and a1's can't thanks to weak ears but k2's can pack simillar fire power at close range and can move very well for avoiding too much return fire to cockpit and focus on one torso side. yes they can brawl well and with harder torso's to rip through. also they don't suffer the heat stalkers do so thank you for telling me assaults are fine and that leaves the catapult under scruitny. the k2 needs a rethink, too much is going for it.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 30 January 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[Zylo]

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 January 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

true so we both agree stalkers aren't a problem nor are assaults are a problem because they're supposed to be wittled down with more fast strikes or equal power brawling. yes 6ppc's stalkers are silly and they run a close second op cheese behind the k2. simply catapults were never suppsoed to out power atlas at close range and a1's can't thanks to weak ears but k2's can pack simillar fire power at close range and can move very well for avoiding too much return fire to cockpit and focus on one torso side. yes they can brawl well and with harder torso's to rip through. also they don't suffer the heat stalkers do so thank you for telling me assaults are fine and that leaves the catapult under scruitny. the k2 needs a rethink, too much is going for it.

The dual AC/20 K2 really can't move as fast as the A1 though due to the torso mounted AC/20's preventing the use of XL engines. Due to this reduced speed, AC/20 cats can be a bit easier to headshot and it is much more difficult for them to sneak up on you.

I guess it's also fair to point out that many of these builds became more common when repair/rearm costs were removed.

Edited by Zylo, 30 January 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Chrithu]

I'm not playing Catapults myself right now. But I play a Ctaphract and a Dragon and I voted no to both.

Because.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Zylo, on 30 January 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

The dual AC/20 K2 really can't move as fast as the A1 though due to the torso mounted AC/20's preventing the use of XL engines. Due to this reduced speed, AC/20 cats can be a bit easier to headshot and it is much more difficult for them to sneak up on you.

I guess it's also fair to point out that many of these builds became more common when repair/rearm costs were removed.

you don't need speed to come out from cover and unless you're boating close range weapons too you're in for a bad time. it's so easy to spring out from the shadows on these maps {ecm helped there} excluding caustic and the amount of closerange weapons being used now as oppsed to long range should tell you where most the fighting and winning happens. thus whackpaults are very effective against anything that hasn't a lagshield. thank god we don't have much of that anymore.


the rnr thing, it's good that you raised that because i think we've exhausted testing all the gear in the game. that's the only reason i liked the idea, don't let economy get in the way of seeing more people use more stuff for study and test purposes. now though i think we're past that stage so it would be good to bring it back, expensive and effective gear should have consiquences for using it, i think it's time for rnr to return.

[Imperius]

There are no such things as cheese builds, just bad players who die from so called cheese builds. Learn to use cover thanks have a good day.

[Zylo]

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 January 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

you don't need speed to come out from cover and unless you're boating close range weapons too you're in for a bad time. it's so easy to spring out from the shadows on these maps {ecm helped there} excluding caustic and the amount of closerange weapons being used now as oppsed to long range should tell you where most the fighting and winning happens. thus whackpaults are very effective against anything that hasn't a lagshield. thank god we don't have much of that anymore.


the rnr thing, it's good that you raised that because i think we've exhausted testing all the gear in the game. that's the only reason i liked the idea, don't let economy get in the way of seeing more people use more stuff for study and test purposes. now though i think we're past that stage so it would be good to bring it back, expensive and effective gear should have consiquences for using it, i think it's time for rnr to return.

The A1 is a perfect example of a mech that would be very expensive to run. All those SRMs aren't cheap to rearm, and if that XL engine gets destroyed that won't be cheap either.

The issues with ECM and the AC/20 cat jumping out from behind cover come down more to tactics and teamwork, any mech with high burst damage could have that same advantage if they are attacking from cover or have been hidden by ECM.

Also in the case of the original complaint of this thread, torso twist really doesn't matter much when a mech with high burst damage pops out from behind cover and attacks. If the high burst damage mech attacks a soft target it will be dead before it has a chance to fight back. This isn't just the catapult that could pull this off, any mech with high burst damage could do it.

[xRatas]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Twist to make him waste that shot and then unload on him. The cat pilot should always be able to give a choice on what armor to take that hit on with it's great torso twist.

Not so easy, enemy really always has the possibility to hold fire until Cat decides to turn back. Done that successfully several times.

Quote

-Can't move arms (countered by good torso twist range)

Entirely negated as you pointed out.

Countered, not negated. You always have to face enemy directly to shoot him. With moving arms, you can freelook and shoot sideways if you like, to save your cockpit. This also helps you to shoot directly behind on some mechs when you run away. Catapult can not do that.

Quote

-Almost always severe heat problems (excluding gausscat, but that has exploding guns)

All mechs overheat, we're talking specifically about how the Catapult's inherent characteristics are balanced against other mechs.

-Usually severe compromising in build: stripped armor, not much ammo, low speed. Or any mix of those.

Same as above, anyone can design any chassis to have this weakness.

Catapult can not mount enough heat sinks for those mentioned and often complained builds. Of course you can make any mech have bad heat efficiency, but if we are talking specific builds that are the problem, heat efficiency is a factor in it IMO. You just can't build those supposedly OP builds without sacrificing lot of capability in other ways.

Quote

The thread is about Catapults being overpowered because of their torso-twist. I would like to spend more time focusing on that rather than having people think "Well the mech still overheats and can't ravage me with SRMS from the 1KM out!" are valid arguments that the Catapult is fine.

Well, I strongly disagree that should be nerfed. It is basically the thing that makes catapult special. If we go on and nerf everything like that, it doesn't much matter what mechs we drive. I'd say it doesn't make the mech overpowered, if something does, then maybe the weapon hardpoints. On K2 I'd say certainly not OP, as they are easy to kill, but I'm kind of biased as I actually have several K2 in my mechbay. None of those never had any Gauss or AC20 though. None the less, I'd hate to see my favorite mech be nerfed in mobility, because it can mount dual AC20, which I never did.

But really, why would that special torso twist really make the mech overpowered? MW4 had mechs (Thanatos and Thor at least) that had unlimited torso rotation, and were never thought of being overpowered because of that, just different and something special.

So, according to poll, most seem to think Cat is not OP, and at least not OP because of torso twist ability. I certainly never had any complaints about Catapults, but then again, I do not play assaults that much, and if I do, they are full of long range weapons. I think most of this originates from fact several people play assault mechs, and their nemesis happens to be the little faster gun/missile boat. Just remember, if something can beat your specific build, it doesn't mean it is OP in general.

I know every time I've guessed wrong and ended up in the middle of 2 or more enemies in my K2, torso twist or speed have not saved me, I always die in few seconds even with full torso armor. Cat simply dies fast, as every shot hit's it torsos or head. Only bad shooters ever hit the arms or legs unintentionally.

---

In polls like this, I think there should always be at least 2 options for both yes and no:
Yes, and I drive the mech we are discussing / I do not drive the mech
No, I drive it / No, I dont drive it.

I can say ECM commando was OP as hell before latest patch, and I did drive it My team's 3L Ravens always outdid my commando though, but I never have owned any of those. And I will say K2 is not OP, and I drive it. I'm also quite sure SRMpult is not OP, although I only tried it few times when getting basic skills done for it. Installed mixed LRM/SRM loadout after some games, as it felt almost useless mech at least half of the match before that.

I do equally well in my Dragon when compared to my K2, although it has less damage done usually, but winning games is easier when you move over 100kph.

---

Also, I do not understand why should Catapult be classed as firesupport mech? What's a Dragon with 4 PPCs, Brawler? Stalker with gazillion medium lasers and streaks, Firesupport? Raven 3L, Scout? If we allow customization to mechs, we can happily throw any mech specific role thinking out through the window, most mechs can be made to fit any role. (Steiner Scout Lance comes to mind here.)

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[TexAce]

I have an idea.

How about this: Don't change anything on the Cat.

BUT:
Give us an option on our other mechs to lock our arms to our torsos and when doing this, give us 10-20 degrees more torso twist range. You can explain it like this: When you lock the arms, the motors that drive the arms up/down and right/left are used to help the motor that drives the torso twist. Or something like that, doesn't have to be super realistic but it could work.

The reason why Cats hit so good is that they don't have to adjust their arms to follow their crosshair all the time, which can be really hard in a tight battle.

Opinions?

[Jetfire]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Yeah, I wasn't expecting this to be a very popular thread.

There's nothing that any other heavy chassis can do that a Cat can't do better. Even when the 'Phract weighs 5 more tons, the hitboxes, torso twist, and hardpoint layout on the Cat just make it the stand out better choice for energy, missile, -and- ballistics boating. Dropping the twist a few knocks so it matches the 90 degrees (give or take) of the other Heavies would go a long way to making it less "just plain better".

Cats are not the best Laser Boats of the current Heavies, the Phracts are. Cats are not the best ballistics boats, Phracts are. Cats are the best missile boats. The thing that has people upset is the Cat being able to stock heavy missiles and be an outstanding Hit and Run mech, Roll dual AC/20 for big hits or snipe with dual Gauss. Now limited hardpoints I am all in favor of, but that doesn't make the K2 without serious trade-offs. The A1 is fine, it is a short range hammer that can't take a beating. It is a glass cannon and cannot brawl in the sense that sitting in the open trading blows with enemy forces will quickly result in an earless, useless Mech. I think it will be a lot clearer once the Jager is out that the CAT is good, but not OP.

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

The Cat has 40 points of armor in it's arms. It also has 40 points of armor in it's side torsos. Besides, this isn't an "OMG CATAPULTS ARE OP NERF NERF NERF" thread. This is a "the Cat seems just a touch too good, and I feel that their ability to shoot every single weapon on the mech almost directly behind them is a big part of that. I feel that their torso reach ought to be brought down a few pegs so it can't do that anymore."

Not sure how the current torso twist can be considered that extreme for a fixed lateral arm mech. Good certainly, but not in need of a nerf.

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Besides, the 'Pract can't mount twin AC20s and twin gauss builds are hampered by the low positioning of the arms (meaning you have to expose more of your mech to take a shot without turfing) and the goofy convergence issues at close range (your arms like to cross within a certain distance, something the K2 doesn't have to worry about with it's extremely close together gauss rifles). Plus, getting behind a 'Phract is pretty easy to do.

You fix convergeance by fixing convergeance, not by nerfing other mechs. The Jager is coming. The Phract is still a much sturdier ballistics heavy gunboat. The K2 AC20 and Gauss builds have some severe downsides and can easily by played around if you don't ignore them.