371 replies to this topic

[xRatas]

TexAss, on 30 January 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

I have an idea.

How about this: Don't change anything on the Cat.

BUT:
Give us an option on our other mechs to lock our arms to our torsos and when doing this, give us 10-20 degrees more torso twist range. You can explain it like this: When you lock the arms, the motors that drive the arms up/down and right/left are used to help the motor that drives the torso twist. Or something like that, doesn't have to be super realistic but it could work.

The reason why Cats hit so good is that they don't have to adjust their arms to follow their crosshair all the time, which can be really hard in a tight battle.

Opinions?

That could work. While quite extreme idea, and not sure I'd support that, but worth a thought. Would certainly make shooting easier for newcomers.

My solution to the issue is that I group my left arm weapons to left mouse button, right arm weapons to right mouse button, and torso weapons to space (I spent all my monies to founder's pack and can't afford decent mouse with more than 2 buttons). That way generally hit what I want in most mechs. (ie. wildly track enemies with the circle, and slam space every time something is in the middle of my screen...)

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[Jakspanky]

the rotation makes up for the fact they have no arms and they have the biggest cockpit profile ever they need these advantages to stay relevant

i read a post a few weeks ago that said catapult builds were useless now thanks to ECM only K2 was useful in game now people are calling for another nerf

learn to play the mechs disadvantages i hate six six cats as much as anyone but you can't nerf a type of mech because you get killed by it

[Mack1]

Tell you what let's just scrap all Mech's except one then you can have your precious balance

I am all for having Mechs of the same weight totally different and if that means one has an advantage in manouvering then so be it, another may be a smaller target and another may be faster or pack more weapons. If we yell Nerf everytime you see a Mech do something your's can not do we are getting nowhere and just giving the devs a headache.

[AimRobot]

Srm/ac is too strong or laser is too weak, i go for fast strong mechs with balistic or missle slots cause it outperform energy slots.
Laser you have to hit the same spot every time and srm you just shoot and take out arm/leg or center as long as you hit.

[Stingz]

Jakspanky, on 30 January 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

the rotation makes up for the fact they have no arms and they have the biggest cockpit profile ever they need these advantages to stay relevant

i read a post a few weeks ago that said catapult builds were useless now thanks to ECM only K2 was useful in game now people are calling for another nerf

learn to play the mechs disadvantages i hate six six cats as much as anyone but you can't nerf a type of mech because you get killed by it

Alrighty then, time to get a 65 Ton Stalker: CPLT-K2. Since it is beta, I guess I'll finally test how broken this mech is.

[Alex Wolfe]

Adrienne Vorton, on 30 January 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

people wanted to nerf the cat to death just because the dual gauss "is sooo goddam OP"...
now it´s the A1...

Wow, it's almost like there's a pattern there, for example like the most powerful weapons (of the patch in question) in the game can be boated on such a versatile chassis with the best torso twist in the game and unhittable sides, which has not been nerfed, indeed was buffed with smaller cockpit hitbox since the days of gausscat.

So whenever another powerful weapon combo surfaces, the mech that benefits the most is the Catapult, and we have an OP Catapult for every patch until the chassis is finally fixed or everyone switches to it at last.

There might be a pattern. I can't quite place it.

Mack1, on 30 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Tell you what let's just scrap all Mech's except one then you can have your precious balance

"Funny" hyperbole. It's like saying that it's fine if one weapon dominates all others, and the only alternative would be to get rid of them all come on now gusy is that what you want!!11!1

How about tweak it a bit so that it's no longer overwhelmingly powerful?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 January 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Zylo, on 30 January 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

I used to be in the same corp with the guy who started this thread. A big part of his problem is playstyle and skill level.

Right, you're qualified to comment on my playstyle and skill level despite the fact that we never once dropped together. I'm not interested in ruthlessly "winning at all costs" and I do play MWO for fun rather than to give myself a second job. This doesn't preclude me from being competitive, it just means that I don't want to dump dozens of hours a week into constantly dropping in 8 mans in my cookie cutter build till I can headshot any mech in the game within seconds of spotting it. I'd much rather spend my time chewing the fat and experimenting with different mech designs. It seems that this automatically makes me a terrible pilot. Gocha.

Zylo, on 30 January 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

2 out of those 3 builds you listed are missile based. Cataphracts and dragons can't compete at all without the same missile hardpoints.

Hardpoint location also plays a part. If players were able to remove actuators and lock parts of the arms I am certain you would see players trying a 3x AC/20 Ilya (some already run 3x UAC/5 and I think the 3x gauss is at least possible).

Right, and with the current hardpoint system SRMs are currently the biggest raw damage for tonnage output in the game. The 'Phract and Dragon can't compete, because ballistics tend to have the lowest damage for tonnage ratio in the game (especially after you factor in ammunition). For pure damage output, it's awfully hard to beat a Catapult, with the 3 UAC5 Marmoset being the only serious contender out of the 'Phracts. Oh, and the 'Pult can also run nearly as fast, jump (for what jumping counts for since the JJ nerf), and do the same damage as the second largest ballistic the 'Phract can pack for 1/5th the tonnage. Yes, it's useless outside of 270m, but it can also move faster than most mediums, just as fast as the fastest 'Phract (who has to devote a -lot- more tonnage to weapons to get the same result, remember, so they can't pack the same massive engine), and again, it can bring it's 6 SRMs to bear anywhere within a 280 degree arc.

Using a handy visual aid, let me illustrate this. Remember, the dark blue is where mech's can bring their full firepower to bear, whereas the light blue arc is where they can bring just their arm weapons to bear.

(Thanks to Neonin and his thread here)

Again, I don't really have problems with splat cats. The build has some obvious downsides (namely anyone standing at 271m or farther), but that doesn't mean that it still isn't better than the other heavy chassis by a country mile. "It's hot" and "You can just shoot it dead" isn't really valid here, as most mech builds (short of twin gauss) have some heat concerns and both the 'Phract and the Dragon are easier to shoot dead than the Cat (you have to expose more of your mech to bring your firepower to bear, meaning you are more subject to return fire). The ability of the Cat to deliver a full alpha Parthian shot is the cherry on top.

Again, I don't want Catapults to be less awesome, less powerful, or to force them into a fire support role. I have no problem with Cats being good brawlers. I just feel like they've got a little too much going for them right now, and they need to be knocked down a peg. Taking away some of their twist won't make the Cat less awesome. It'll still be able to pack 6 SRM6s, twin AC20s, twin Gauss, or 6 Streaks -just- as effectively as you could before. No changes to it's heat scale, it's hardpoints, it's hitboxes or loadout. The -only- thing lowering the twist angle will do is give the mech a larger blindspot, and only by 10-20 degrees. It'll still beat the 'Phract for weapon reach and match the Dragon. So you won't be able to fire at targets almost directly behind you for your full alpha damage. It's still a bloody terrifying chassis.

Long and short of it is that I don't think the best boating chassis in the game (namely, it can boat huge numbers of weapons without sacrificing much of anything for it) needs the best torso twist in the game bar none.

[Radbane]

Deamhan, on 29 January 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

The K2 should have its ballistic hard point relocated to the arms.

No, they should be relocated to the CT, meaning you could only fit two MG's or AC2's there. Afterall, the ballistic weapons on the CPLT is modelled to be rather small.

[Josef Nader]

Cutting down my wall of text to a single point: Why do we see cheese builds crop up time and time again for the Catapult and not for other chassis? First, it's got the best hardpoints for boating. Can't change anything about that. Second, it's got the best torso twist and reach in the game. We can change that, as it's never had that advantage before and there's nothing in canon that says it needs 280 degrees of twist. As someone pointed out earlier, it only had 200 degrees of twist in MW4, and it was still an awesome chassis and a fan favorite. The Cat would be a few shades less cheese friendly if we knocked down the torso twist reach a few notches. It would go from "far and away the best option to fill a heavy slot" to "a fantastic option to fill a heavy slot".

[rdelta78]

I don't feel like the cat is the best mech/ heavy in the game. However, from a medium mech player's view (aka mine), If i see a AC20/ SRM/ SSRM cat, I better try to retreat and hide behind teammates cause I can't win the fight. Yeah i can try to tango with it but eventually the one with the smoking pile of metal wont be the cat.

So why is that? Am i bad pilot? Or maybe i use a bad build?

Well, it's all of them and simultaneously not. I'm above average but i make mistakes (like getting close to a brawl range, when i should stay away and support from a distance). My build is not for close quarters (more like medium), so when the said cat comes close to me I'm kind of toast.

Does that mean my medium mech should be sold? Should i feel bad for piloting a clearly not competitive mech build?

The answer is: Nope!

I have my strengths and my weaknesses. Yes, it is annoying to get vaporized in a split second.

So where does the entire problem come? Simple, i say, it comes from the darn small maps. If they were to be bigger, a lot more complex, had more interesting terrains and real satisfying objectives, you'd see that every mech (not only the cat) would shine under the artificial sky.

[Yokaiko]

I like the boat complaints.

WTF are you supposed to do with a mech that ONLY has missile slots?

[Broceratops]

YOU'RE OFF THE CASE CATAPULT. THE MAYOR IS ALL OVER MY *** ON THIS ONE. YOU'RE OUT OF LINE.

[Gaeb]

Cats are the cheesiest chassis. A1, K2 I'm looking at you.

That said, they're not gamebreakingly overpowered, just incredibly cheesy. I'd like to see them get a downward balancing tweak, torso twist or otherwise, but they're not ruining the game.

Edited by Gaeb, 30 January 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Mechteric]

I'd not be opposed to a torso twist nerf, they can keep their Dual AC20s and Gausses and 6 SRM6 for all I care since they're within the build rules. But that godly torso twist is just insane. 90 degrees, done. (But let Twist-X extend that!)

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 30 January 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

These builds have been around for a very long time. Effective counters have been made and used shortly afterwards, the latest being ECM to counter streaks.

[Alex Wolfe]

Yokaiko, on 30 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

I like the boat complaints.

WTF are you supposed to do with a mech that ONLY has missile slots?

Nothing about slots.

Change the chassis performance so that it pays for its slots, like the (non-3F) Stalker does. So that it can be outmaneuvered, and not just keep staring at you and hammering with 40/90 damage constantly, denying access to its XL/weapon housing side torsos and wrecking yours in the process. The whole problem is because this boat swims too well.

Yes, 3F is out of the line as well.

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

These builds have been around for a very long time. Effective counters have been made and used shortly afterwards, the latest being ECM to counter streaks.

And the Catapult users reacted to this change by... switching to SRM6s and still dominating, because the chassis is what's broken.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 January 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

And the Catapult users reacted to this change by... switching to SRM6s and still dominating, because the chassis is what's broken.

The counter to that is to either stay out of the TAG/SRM's range, call in help from your teammates, or if you're in an area that can provide cover to duck and weave between that cover until the Cat gives up to find something else.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 January 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

The counter to that is to either stay out of the TAG/SRM's range, call in help from your teammates, or if you're in an area that can provide cover to duck and weave between that cover until the Cat gives up to find something else.

Ahahahaha.

Yeah, the counter to a mech is not engaging the mech. Just hide and hope it goes away. Stall and hope the dinosaurs won't find you. Prayer optional.

And it's SO hard for catapults to reach SRMs effective range with a mech running 80 kph, on this game's tiny, cover-overflowing maps.

Your suggestion to "get help from teammates" only shows even you know how Catapults are. What you say basically suggests that a Catapult is worth at least 2 other mechs. Basically, by picking a cheesepult variant you attain a level boss status, and need a tank, healer and DPS to down if piloted semi-competently? You suggest to engage catapult with 2 mechs, what if there are 4 catapults? That's 8 people to engage them all, at least! What if there are eight? You don't get 16 on your team. Should you type "gg" and walk out of bonds?

It's not like there are brawlers that can engage SRM36cat in the game currently, besides maybe Stalker 3F. Shouldn't there be? Shouldn't you be able to go toe-to-toe with brawler cat in, say, a brawler Cataphract? Guess what: due to hitboxes and twist, you're not. There's a reason A1 earned the moniker "raidboss" few patches back. That was the streak version, SRM36 doesn't aim for you, but it 2shots most mechs up close so you get the idea.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 January 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Personally I see no justification for the Catapult to have significantly better torso twist than other armless mechs (Raven, Jenner, Cicada, Stalker - all worse, and within the same ballpark) so I'd support a reduction (or an increase for the others? meet halfway?) just on the basis of that lack of justification.

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

It's not like there are brawlers that can engage SRM36cat in the game currently, besides maybe Stalker.

Sorry but this, and I'm not a catty pilot, is a major exaggeration. Those ears are huge, and vulnerable. It's probably the easiest mech in the game to disarm and the most obnoxious variant has no backup weapons in the torso.

[Josef Nader]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

And the Catapult users reacted to this change by... switching to SRM6s and still dominating, because the chassis is what's broken.

That's really the core of it. People just keep swapping from cheesecat build to cheesecat build because the Catapult itself is an incredibly good chassis that nothing else can really hold a candle to. It is chock full of hardpoints that can take full advantage of the most powerful weapons in the game better than almost any other mech currently implemented can. Sure, that's fine. I don't mind the Cat having it's awesome hardpoints. I just feel like it shouldn't have awesome hardpoints and still have a wider torso twist than every other mech in the game by 20 degrees or more, and just shy of the widest reach in the game (an honor currently held by the Hunchback, but with 4 lasers at most compared to the Cat's twin ballistics or truckload of SRMs).

Plain and simple, this has nothing to do with losing to catapults, or dying to catapults, or wah wah wah cat cheese nerf nerf nerf. I don't mind cheese. I don't have trouble beating cheese. This has nothing to do with Cats being "unbeatable" or "OP" or whatnot. This is looking at Cats from a number crunching perspective, a minmaxers perspective, and a long-time player's perspective. I know almost every cheese cat can be beaten with some tactics and thought. I still think that the chassis itself is too good, and the reason that everyone runs to the Cat for the FotM builds is because it's got everything going for it. It needs to get toned down a touch if we want other heavy mechs to be seriously considered. The 'Phract needs to have an advantage in having mobile arms. The Dragon needs to have an advantage in it's speed and manuverability. The Cat can't be just as fast, just as armored, with better hardpoints and better maneuverability and still have the other heavies be viable options. There just isn't any comparison.

Let the Cats have their awesome hardpoints. There's nothing wrong with those. Tone down the torso twist so it's less far-and-away better in a brawl than other mechs and you'll start to see that the other heavies start to shine a bit more.