371 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Are we talking about a true team? One that uses 3rd party comms to communicate? My team does all the time, I use my Ilya over a Cat every time. It fields 2 LL's and 2 LBX's, I shred thru armor on most mechs that my teammates have difficulty with and use them to help kill the things like the RaidCat you mentioned earlier. I think the only heavy mech my team doesn't use at all is the Dragon. The Jagermech will also be an effective counter to almost any Cat at distance, made more effective by either harassing lights or my Ilya. We're all smart enough to stay close enough to cover one another, or fast enough to get back to said cover if needed.

Another vote for Phract (most of them) over a Cat

I have both chassis mastered, my Ily is a go to mech, as is my 4X....mainly because I love flinging metal around.

[Alex Wolfe]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

So your point is to pick apart my statement into individual words and then pull a childis comment like that? Wow, what effective debate skills you have Alex. IF SRM Cats are so effective why haven't they been boated far longer than Streak Cats?

My point is that if that's the sort of thing that you'd believe about the game balance, then we won't find an understanding even if I typed the equivalent of a new "War and Peace", with 3/4 of "Ulysses" here.

Hey, at least give me credit for not using that* when I first read your words, okay? Because that's exactly how I felt, and now I feel it's a bit of a waste.

*that:

Spoiler

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 January 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Super Mono]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

So your point is to pick apart my statement into individual words and then pull a childis comment like that? Wow, what effective debate skills you have Alex. IF SRM Cats are so effective why haven't they been boated far longer than Streak Cats?

The entire point of this argument is that the Catapult's chassis itself is overpowered due to the advantages its incredible torso twist gives it. Focusing on whatever weapons it's boating is missing the point.

[Yokaiko]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

So your point is to pick apart my statement into individual words and then pull a childis comment like that? Wow, what effective debate skills you have Alex. IF SRM Cats are so effective why haven't they been boated far longer than Streak Cats?

They have, before streakcats there was a fair amount of whining about 6pack cats. Of course there were no double heatsinks at the time, so they only got a volley or two before they over heated.

[Josef Nader]

Thorstine, on 30 January 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

I don't think the problem is with the Catapult. If its the SRM boats or LRM boats that are the problem, then nerfing the missile damage would be a better solution. If its the K2, there are other drawbacks. For the Gauss cat, you must use an XL engine or the mech is just to slow. If its the AC20 build you must use a small STD engine giving up a lot of speed. If you know what you are facing than you know what its weakness is and you should be capitalizing on it.

But what about other mechs that make good use of SRMs or LRMs without boating them? The HBK-4SP, or the Centurion chassis as a whole? Heavy/Assault hunting light mechs who pack an SRM6 or an SRM4 or two. Are these builds too powerful and in need of a nerf? No. The problem is the Cat chassis.

And for those of you saying you'd like to take a 'Phract; that's fine and dandy. I, personally am terrible in Catapults and greatly prefer either mediums or assaults. They're just more fun to play. I'm speaking from experience and an awfully long time spent crunching the numbers on my mechcrafting. A well-run Catapult can stomp just about any other heavy short of a 3 UAC Marmoset or a carefully aimed 4 AC5 4X, and even then these builds aren't anywhere near as prevalent on a competitive circuit as our dear little kitty cat.

[Corvus Antaka]

The Cat chassis has ridiculous torso twist for its intended long range battlefield role. its why we see so many cat brawlers too. Its simply poor mech design choice imho.

[Super Mono]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 January 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

The Cat chassis has ridiculous torso twist for its intended long range battlefield role. its why we see so many cat brawlers too. Its simply poor mech design choice imho.

Huh, I guess that's why the Hunchback has a great torso-twist as well, so that it can provide long-range support with its AC/20.

[Josef Nader]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 January 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

The Cat chassis has ridiculous torso twist for its intended long range battlefield role. its why we see so many cat brawlers too. Its simply poor mech design choice imho.

Why would a second line fire support mech need such a huge torso traverse when it should be standing behind the front line raining long range fire on it's enemies? You'd think close range infighter mechs would need that massive traverse a lot more.

I mean, most self-propelled artillery nowadays has a relatively stationary turret, relying on simply rotating the chassis to make major adjustments to the firing arc because the artillery is almost never going to have to fire on things coming up behind it. By comparison, modern MBTs almost universally have a 360 degree turret twist, because the ability to react to things going on everywhere around them is vital to their survival.

[Chunkylad]

I keep seeing the catapult compared to the dragon, there is no comparison, different roles. The closest thing a catapult compared to is the stalker and loosely the cataphract. Therefore, I agree purely with nerfing how far a catapult can twist, I have played both splatcat and AC20 K2 and have a C1 which I have used as an LRM and SRM platform. Splatcats can be made so agile without any of the xp additions, but it truly comes down to what you can get from xp. When you hit elite and get the 2x basic bonuses, that percentage twist x adds up especially on a mech with a high base twist x. Add the movement speed boost and you have one terrifying close range brawler. My splatcat goes at a steady 85kph and can match the maneuverability and speed of dragons, hunchies, and centis. Currently the easiest build to play in the game atm, run duo with my friends splatcat and we haven't lost a game yet with them. Why we win every game with them? We maneuver to behind the enemy team and 1-2 shot the mediums, lights, and the occasional heavy. Between the 2 of us we average about 4 kills per match so no matter how bad our pugs are, they can still clean up what we haven't. My splatpult is fully armored, but my friends only has ~350 and traded for JJ's over some speed. From experience, if you face people who actually know how to focus components, splatcats do not last long. A few AC5/10/20 rounds to the arms and pop half your loadout is gone. Killing them requires only basic game knowledge and teamwork.

[Suki]

I wonder, what will be in the next whining thread about cats?
I'vw got 2 left hands and can't aim their big ears - let's double it's size!!!
They've got too much leg armor and I can'cripple them in one shot - lets reduse their leg armor!!!!
The cat looked at me very scary and i pissed my pants - lets convert them hellokitty like!!!!

[Kurshuk]

I'm not sure why you think a catapult is an overpowered chassis. When I started running cats I was terrible. This was all back in closed beta.

I made an LRM cat because back then through some of the buffs to LRMS they were pretty effective to boat. So I boated LRMS. Then I turned the A1 into a streakcat. Didn't care for that and switched again to SRM/LRM mix. Didn't like how much the LRMS weighed so I switched it to a straight SRM cat. This was before streakapults were causing issues even. Months before ECM. And I ran it like that for a long time.

I disagree that boated weapons are an issue because it reduces your effective range by a lot. If you can't find a way to deal damage outside of about 150m I don't know what to tell you. Learn to position better. If you get in a turning fight with a cat and realize that in a turning fight they have the upper hand, stop circling.

My background is in flightsims. Each plane has a little bit different strength. Some planes you'd never utilize in a turning fight because they're faster in a straight line than the opposition. There are some planes you wouldn't want to get into a climbing battle with because they have a better climb rate. The variety is the spice of life, stop trying to break the catapult and learn how to mitigate their advantages. Yes, 2 ac 20s hurt to get hit by them, so attack that target as a group. If it's an LRM boat send a light with ECM.

We have the tools, but if you can't even be bothered to think about effective counters then you'll just end up complaining on the forums.

Kurshuk
Alexi.Kurshuk@gmail.com

[ihateharriers]

[badmeme]

They see me boatin', they hatin'
I'm ownin', they trying to catch me past 270m
My 6xSRM6 are so OP, 270° swangin'
They hopin' they gon' catch me past 270m

[/badmeme]

Haters gon' hate.

Simple as that.

Oh, and just to establish a sense of reality here, let's clear something up:

WARNING - COMMON SENSE HIDDEN IN SPOILER!
Don't click if you you don't want to have all of your inane illusions shattered.

Spoiler

SRM Max range of 270 means: SRMS explode at 270m with a massive spread.

SRM effective range: minimum effectiveness is about 150m, but that tends to be hit or miss; actual effective range for SRMs is in reality less than 100m- it's within this distance than Splat Cats become this horrendous scourge that you're all terrified of.

So this means that:

Medium Laser: ~3x greater effective range
Large Laser: ~4.5x greater effective range
PPC: ~5.4x greater effective range
ER Large Laser: ~6.5x greater effective range
Gauss Rifle: ~6.6x greater effective range
LRMs: ~10x effective range
ER PPC: ~8x greater effective range

So in conclusion: lrn2prioritize targets, lrn2keep distance, and use distance to your advantage, because distance is your advantage!

[Jel]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Why would a second line fire support mech need such a huge torso traverse when it should be standing behind the front line raining long range fire on it's enemies? You'd think close range infighter mechs would need that massive traverse a lot more.

Role is determined by loadout, not mech chassis. The only way to pigeonhole the Catapult as a "second line fire support mech" is to eliminate customization entirely for all mechs. Do you want that? I wouldn't mind, but I suspect most would object.

Edited by Jel, 30 January 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Super Mono]

Kurshuk, on 30 January 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure why you think a catapult is an overpowered chassis. When I started running cats I was terrible. This was all back in closed beta.

I made an LRM cat because back then through some of the buffs to LRMS they were pretty effective to boat. So I boated LRMS. Then I turned the A1 into a streakcat. Didn't care for that and switched again to SRM/LRM mix. Didn't like how much the LRMS weighed so I switched it to a straight SRM cat. This was before streakapults were causing issues even. Months before ECM. And I ran it like that for a long time.

I disagree that boated weapons are an issue because it reduces your effective range by a lot. If you can't find a way to deal damage outside of about 150m I don't know what to tell you. Learn to position better. If you get in a turning fight with a cat and realize that in a turning fight they have the upper hand, stop circling.

My background is in flightsims. Each plane has a little bit different strength. Some planes you'd never utilize in a turning fight because they're faster in a straight line than the opposition. There are some planes you wouldn't want to get into a climbing battle with because they have a better climb rate. The variety is the spice of life, stop trying to break the catapult and learn how to mitigate their advantages. Yes, 2 ac 20s hurt to get hit by them, so attack that target as a group. If it's an LRM boat send a light with ECM.

We have the tools, but if you can't even be bothered to think about effective counters then you'll just end up complaining on the forums.

Kurshuk
Alexi.Kurshuk@gmail.com

A game that uses managing torso and leg positions as a primary skill and Catapult is like putting in easy mode, there is no skill needed for a Catapult as there's very little dead-zone where you can't use your weapons that you have to worry about. For a heavy mech that should be a big concern and a large part of learning to use a particular chassis.

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Nonsense about SRMS

This is a thread about Catapults, please try actually reading the threads you reply to.

[Jetfire]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for someone to counter my point about how the Catapult's chassis itself has very little in the way of an actual downsides, and not change the subject by bringing up unrelated nonsense about SRMs.

So the huge, shoot me now arms and the ARGH!! NOT IN THE FACE!! Huge Cockpit are not downsides?

The Phract is a much better brawler. The Cat is good for frontline or ranged support and hit and runs, but not brawling.

[Kaspirikay]

Catapults seem fine. Maybe the K2 needs abit of a balance if only due to dual 20 and gauss. But they're pretty much spot on.

[Super Mono]

Jetfire, on 30 January 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

So the huge, shoot me now arms and the ARGH!! NOT IN THE FACE!! Huge Cockpit are not downsides?

The Phract is a much better brawler. The Cat is good for frontline or ranged support and hit and runs, but not brawling.

Mitigated by the incredible torso twist as I pointed out. The Catapult should be able to twist and present fresh armor to take shots on to prevent the enemy from focusing on one component. This damage mitigation is a huge part of brawling and this is why the Catapult excels in this role.

[Josef Nader]

People are arguing against ghosts here. Read the OP before you guys drop in with the same dead horse. I never once have complained that the Cat's hardpoints are too good, or that they're too hard to beat. My only observation is that a big part of their popularity is their insane torso twist and ability to alpha at the extremes of their torso twist, and that their twist traverse is far and large beyond everything else in the game, giving an already very powerful mech a very, -very- potent advantage over other mechs when all the other chassis in the game seem to have limitations in to keep powerful boats (like the Stalker) from absolutely dominating.

I agree that Cats and Stalkers are the closest approximation. Imagine what Stalkers could do if they had torso twist like Cats. They'd go from "awesome" to "insane" in very short order. However, because the Stalker can be outmanuvered easily, it's a serious toss up between more firepower and more agility. That's the kind of interesting decision I'd like to see. As it stands, you can get speed, firepower, armor, and agility all in the same mech with none of the drawbacks (aside from large arms and a larger than average head hitbox. The 'Phract has huge zoot suit shoulders and low-slung arms that require almost full exposure before you can fire on an enemy, and the Dragon has an enormous damage soaking nose that focuses all the hits on the CT. All chassis have weaknesses like that. The Dragon and the 'Phract also have those weaknesses AND inferior torso twist and reach to the Cat.).

[Josef Nader]

Jel, on 30 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Role is determined by loadout, not mech chassis. The only way to pigeonhole the Catapult as a "second line fire support mech" is to eliminate customization entirely for all mechs. Do you want that? I wouldn't mind, but I suspect most would object.

Did I say that? No. The entire thread I've been hammering on the fact that I'm fine with Cat brawlers. I've said it dozens of times already. The Cat is an amazing brawler, and it should stay a great brawler. But that's just it. We need to tone it down from "amazing" to "great". Once we do, there will be a bit more choice in who we plug into the heavy slot.

The comments on the Cat being a "second line fire support mech" are more from a canon perspective and have little to do with the gameplay balance. I just think it's a little silly that a mech that is essentially an MLRS can traverse like an MBT, but that is neither here nor there as far as game balance.

[LaserAngel]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

People are arguing against ghosts here. Read the OP before you guys drop in with the same dead horse. I never once have complained that the Cat's hardpoints are too good, or that they're too hard to beat. My only observation is that a big part of their popularity is their insane torso twist and ability to alpha at the extremes of their torso twist, and that their twist traverse is far and large beyond everything else in the game, giving an already very powerful mech a very, -very- potent advantage over other mechs when all the other chassis in the game seem to have limitations in to keep powerful boats (like the Stalker) from absolutely dominating.

I agree that Cats and Stalkers are the closest approximation. Imagine what Stalkers could do if they had torso twist like Cats. They'd go from "awesome" to "insane" in very short order. However, because the Stalker can be outmanuvered easily, it's a serious toss up between more firepower and more agility. That's the kind of interesting decision I'd like to see. As it stands, you can get speed, firepower, armor, and agility all in the same mech with none of the drawbacks (aside from large arms and a larger than average head hitbox. The 'Phract has huge zoot suit shoulders and low-slung arms that require almost full exposure before you can fire on an enemy, and the Dragon has an enormous damage soaking nose that focuses all the hits on the CT. All chassis have weaknesses like that. The Dragon and the 'Phract also have those weaknesses AND inferior torso twist and reach to the Cat.).

I remember when we were terrified that the Stalker would have the same torso twist as the Catapult on top of all those hardpoints.