371 replies to this topic

[xRatas]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

You brought up one actual weakness of the catapult that's not shared by every other mech, and as I've pointed out repeatedly this is easily negated by a the player making good use of the Catapult's great torso twist. So what's the point of having a weakness if you give it an huge advantage that neutralizes it?

Seriously now, the Cat can not shoot you if he points his torso backwards. If he wants to shoot you, he needs to turn the head towards you, and that is when you strike. Hitting fire every time your guns are loaded is not always the best solution in this game, really.

But no matter, most of people do not have the problem some of you seem to have, and that's fine for me.

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Felix Dante]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

It seems like every cheese build that rolls out that -doesn't- involve ECM involves Cats. The Catapult is, bar none, the most powerful heavy chassis in the game. That's not to say that the 'Phracts or Dragons aren't solid mechs, but as far as raw power, they can't match the Catapult.

Why is that? Well, primarily it's because the Cat is a very boat friendly chassis, and boats will always be popular in MW. They're easy to play, and they tend to be rather powerful. So obviously, we nerf the hardpoints to make it a less viable boat, right? Well hold on, the Cat needs a niche, and as a heavyweight energy/missileboat it serves our needs just fine. I don't really have a problem with it being a good boat.

So, how then can we knock the Cat down a peg without overnerfing it? How can we keep the Cat as a really solid chassis while narrowing the gap between it and the other heavies?

Simple. The Cat has an advantage that no other chassis can hope to replicate. It's torso traverse. Catapults can turn almost all the way around, and with a big engine it can do so very quickly. This makes the Catapult the undeniable brawl king, as it can track mechs well beyond the point where any other chassis would be able to keep them in the crosshairs. You can't outmanuver Cats as they are. Their turret-like upper torsos just make them too damn agile. So, how do we nerf the Cat's superiority without taking away hardpoints or changing much about how it plays? We give it a blind spot. We decrease the insane amount of torso traverse (matched only by the Hunchback's Torso+Arms and the Spider's Torso + Arms) and the Catapult suddenly becomes a lot less insane in a brawl.

Look at the Stalker. I'm not saying it has to be decreased -that- far, but the Stalker is still an insanely powerful fire support mech while not being completely dominant in a brawl, and Stalker brawlers can burn down anything they can keep in front of them.

The idea struck me while I was trying to circle around behind a splat cat in my Centurion, and I realized that he could hit me far outside of my traverse with very little effort in a turning battle. It struck me as a little funky that a second line fire support mech can easily beat a main-line battlemech in a turning battle.

Like I said before, I really don't have a problem with all the boat builds. Splat cats, Streak cats, Gauss Cats, KC20s, there's nothing wrong with them and they're certainly beatable. They just seem a little too good compared to the other mechs you can bring. Gaussaphracts just aren't as good as Gausscats. An SRM Stalker isn't really as good as the splat cat. I think the biggest reason behind this is the amount of torso traverse the Cat has, and I'd be very interested to see what reducing the traverse would do to make the Cat a little less dominant.
EDIT: Added a poll.

Are you kidding me? The whole point to playing a Cat IMHO is the "turret-like" aspect of the mech. That's why I play them so much. My guess is you haven't figured in the Cat's vulnerabilites too much then as balance. Cat's can't shoot under their noses very well (great place for lights to hide and shoot back) and means, unless they have short range weapons in their arms, can't shoot down the side of hills effectively at all. Let's not even mention the whole "easy to hit" torsos and head they have.

Each chassis has a uniqueness to it that previous versions of the Mechwarrior game lacked. Simple as that. One of the reasons I love MWO as much as I do (no matter how often I get curbstomped while playing) is that they actually put effeort into making each chassis unique enough that playing one heavy mech is different (in some cases VERY different) than playing others. I thought I would like running a Dragon...but I tried it and felt more comfortable in the Catapult. Simple as that. One of the great reasons to use the Trial Mechs occasionally (just tried the Trial Spider the other day...and liked it too!).

Test out a different mech chassis you might like and maybe figure out its velnerabilites while you are at it. it's loads of fun and costs nothing.

[Josef Nader]

Yes, but a Cat pilot worth his silly ears will turn to face you, line up for a split second, and let fly before turning to spread your return fire, using his big engine and wide torso reach to spread your damage. Again, headcapping Cats is pretty easy to do. It still doesn't invalidate the fact that they're still the best option for heavy mechs right now by a wide margin, and they've been the best option for a very, very long time with nothing on the horizon looking to change that.

[Dagger6T6]

[Josef Nader]

I laughed.

Edited by Josef Nader, 30 January 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[ihateharriers]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

1. Giant cockpit - it's huge. Absolutely huge, and easy to hit if you've ever used a mouse before. Oh, and that "super advantageous torso twist" you complain about? It let's you hit that massive cockpit from any angle if you're not too busy crying and bother to aim for it.

You brought up one actual weakness of the catapult that's not shared by every other mech, and as I've pointed out repeatedly this is easily negated by a the player making good use of the Catapult's great torso twist. So what's the point of having a weakness if you give it an huge advantage that neutralizes it?

For someone who likes to criticize other's reading abilities, perhaps you could try that reading thing yourself, because of the point I made within that post you tried to use against me:

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

1. Giant cockpit - it's huge. Absolutely huge, and easy to hit if you've ever used a mouse before. Oh, and that "super advantageous torso twist" you complain about? It let's you hit that massive cockpit from any angle if you're not too busy crying and bother to aim for it.

Smells like FAIL in here.

Remember kids, aiming is what kills things, no matter what 'Mech or weapons you have. If you ain't aimin', you ain't killin'. Simple concept!

[Wolfways]

Deamhan, on 29 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

If I recall, there is enough crit space in the arms to fit a PPC and a machine gun. So the only thing this changes to the stock build is where the weapons are located.

That's my point. Change where the weapons are and it's not the same mech.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Again, the Catapult has several innate advantages over other chassis:

1) High mounted weapons, meaning it can fire it's weapons with a minimum of exposure, especially when sniping
2) Excellent, symmetrical hard points that support a huge, flexible variety of builds making it one of the most versatile chassis in the game.
3) Multiple jumping variants (hopefully, they'll do something to make jump jets less terrible, but that's another story.)
4) Narrow torso hit profile, especially face on.

1) There are other mechs that share the high mounted weapons that are already in game or soon will be.
2) Missiles or Energy slots are not as versatile as you would believe. Missiles can only do damage directly (SRM's) and not likely to find using the advantage of sticking them over a hill but still being under cover. LRM cover suffers from getting nailed by not having short range defenses. Energy HP's suffer from being targeted by any mech with LRM's quickly. Your pro and con for this void each other out.
3) Again, how many other chassis use JJ's as an advantage than Cat's do?
4) how is a head on CT/Cockpit on the Cat narrow? Your con negates your pro point again.

[Josef Nader]

Uh, I'm fairly certain that only the front two windows count as the head hitbox for the Cat. Can't say I've ever managed to headcap one from a side-on view, at least not that I remember.

[Wrenchfarm]

Wow. Some of the arguments in this thread.

"A 90 damage Alpha in a mech that can run 80KPH and look directly behind itself is fine because IT HAS A SLIGHTLY BIGGER COCKPIT HITBOX."

Yeah, sounds balanced. If the other guy isn't Quigley Down Under with his Gauss or PPC, you get to sprint up and two-shot him with a cloud of death. Balanced.

[Josef Nader]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

1) There are other mechs that share the high mounted weapons that are already in game or soon will be.
2) Missiles or Energy slots are not as versatile as you would believe. Missiles can only do damage directly (SRM's) and not likely to find using the advantage of sticking them over a hill but still being under cover. LRM cover suffers from getting nailed by not having short range defenses. Energy HP's suffer from being targeted by any mech with LRM's quickly. Your pro and con for this void each other out.
3) Again, how many other chassis use JJ's as an advantage than Cat's do?
4) how is a head on CT/Cockpit on the Cat narrow? Your con negates your pro point again.

1) It's true. It's one of the reasons the Hunchback is so great. You can fire your big boombox over cover and around corners pretty easily, making it a really nasty skirmisher in tight quarters. It's still a serious advantage over things like the 'Phract's low mounted guns, or the Atlas' crotch gun. Just because there are other chassis that share an advantage doesn't invalidate the fact that the Cat has them. It's the various combinations of strengths and weaknesses that really make a chassis work.

2) Energy hardpoints have the disadvantage of being hot. Missile hardpoints have the disadvantage of having hard range caps. Ballistics are disadvantaged because they're bloody heavy. The Cat can mount all 3 on one variant or another, and usually in a better configuration than other mechs.

3) We have exactly one other mech heavier than a Jenner that can JJ, and it's the mediocre Cataphract 3D. Having JJ on a solid heavy is a serious thing. Or rather, it used to be before JJ nerfs but that's, again, another story.

4) Yes, the cat has a large head hitbox, but it has the advantage of having really hard to focus side torsos when face on. This is a big part of what makes ballistic cats so good. This is less important for missile cats, but that's been the point of this whole post. The Catapult is pretty darn great at -everything-, and I think that's an issue.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Uh, I'm fairly certain that only the front two windows count as the head hitbox for the Cat. Can't say I've ever managed to headcap one from a side-on view, at least not that I remember.

Side view no, but SRM's require face on firing. as does Cat sniping. LRM Cat's get popped by sniping.

I'm not disputing that their popular. They are a great mech, but they are still a cheese build and will get countered by mechs that can deal with diverse situations.

[ihateharriers]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Uh, I'm fairly certain that only the front two windows count as the head hitbox for the Cat. Can't say I've ever managed to headcap one from a side-on view, at least not that I remember.

Judging from all the complaints you have about Cats, I'm assuming you're not much good at killing them, so how does this prove your point again?


NEWSFLASH:

Most 'Mechs are taller than Cats, you can aim down at the front of their head from any angle!

Btw, I'm fairly sure that hitboxes are independent of the polygons on a mesh - and a BOX is different from a PLANE, with a BOX having 3 dimensions (Width x Length x Height) and a PLANE 2 dimensions (Width x Length); therefore, the hitbox should at least partially cover the side of the head if my interpretation of a hitbox is right.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I am interested to know how exactly hitboxes have been implemented.

[Josef Nader]

So yeah, I'm not disputing that if the Cat pilot gives you the shot, it's pretty easy to headcap them. I still maintain that any cat pilot worth his Mickey Mouse ears will make getting that shot pretty challenging, as he understands his head is weak and he has an enormous twist rate to avoid you getting the shot off. SRMs and Ballistics are a very short window of engagement weapon. There is no intervention required between pulling the trigger and hitting your target, so he can let his volley fly and immediately focus on shielding himself from the return fire with very little effort.

[Wrenchfarm]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

So yeah, I'm not disputing that if the Cat pilot gives you the shot, it's pretty easy to headcap them. I still maintain that any cat pilot worth his Mickey Mouse ears will make getting that shot pretty challenging, as he understands his head is weak and he has an enormous twist rate to avoid you getting the shot off. SRMs and Ballistics are a very short window of engagement weapon. There is no intervention required between pulling the trigger and hitting your target, so he can let his volley fly and immediately focus on shielding himself from the return fire with very little effort.

C'mon, don't dispute the skill of moving their head slightly left or right. You might hurt their feelings. They might start to realize they are coming up with patently ridiculous excuses to justify their easy-cheddar mech.

[Josef Nader]

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Judging from all the complaints you have about Cats, I'm assuming you're not much good at killing them, so how does this prove your point again?

Where in the whole thread did I mention anything about having trouble killing cats? The only thing even close to that is the anecdote in the OP used to illustrate why it's a huge advantage for them to be able to turn almost all the way around, and that it makes them much more challenging to tangle with, especially if your out-weighed (whereas other mechs might be a much more even fight). I've said time and time again that I don't think the Cat is OP, or even particularly hard to kill. I just think that it's still a few shades too good for it to offer interesting choices as far as the metagame is concerned.

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

NEWSFLASH:

Most 'Mechs are taller than Cats, you can aim down at the front of their head from any angle!

Demonstrably wrong:

Some mechs may have a higher cockpit, but that doesn't mean their weapons are mounted high enough to pull that kind of shot off.

Spoiler

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Btw, I'm fairly sure that hitboxes are independent of the polygons on a mesh - and a BOX is different from a PLANE, with a BOX having 3 dimensions (Width x Length x Height) and a PLANE 2 dimensions (Width x Length); therefore, the hitbox should at least partially cover the side of the head if my interpretation of a hitbox is right.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I am interested to know how exactly hitboxes have been implemented.

Hitboxes are not, in fact, boxes. They are simplified primitives. Unless your game is minecraft, your hitboxes aren't going to be actual boxes. Instead, they're close approximations done with simple shapes designed to be as close to the high-poly model as possible. You'd be pretty pissed if shots that missed your model still caused damage because the hitbox jutted out for no reason beyond modeler laziness.

[LaserAngel]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Side view no, but SRM's require face on firing. as does Cat sniping. LRM Cat's get popped by sniping.

I'm not disputing that their popular. They are a great mech, but they are still a cheese build and will get countered by mechs that can deal with diverse situations.

Would you care to explain the situation with LRMcats? I play nothing but my Founder's C1 right now and since I have my Cats mastered I keep my K2 for PPC fire support. It takes two crummy pilots to tango but PPCs beat LRMs and LRMs beat PPC. No, really you need to understand the aspects of both weapon systems to win against another pilot. Guess what can also beat LRMs? Better LRMs!

Artemis is a must for anyone trying to use LRMs. I can beat other LRM boats at their own game in my C1 just with Artemis and the GXP/C-Bills dumped into modules. My missiles are halfway to their target when they're just firing. On top of that people using trickle fire launchers for a LRM 15/20.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

1) It's true. It's one of the reasons the Hunchback is so great. You can fire your big boombox over cover and around corners pretty easily, making it a really nasty skirmisher in tight quarters. It's still a serious advantage over things like the 'Phract's low mounted guns, or the Atlas' crotch gun. Just because there are other chassis that share an advantage doesn't invalidate the fact that the Cat has them. It's the various combinations of strengths and weaknesses that really make a chassis work.

2) Energy hardpoints have the disadvantage of being hot. Missile hardpoints have the disadvantage of having hard range caps. Ballistics are disadvantaged because they're bloody heavy. The Cat can mount all 3 on one variant or another, and usually in a better configuration than other mechs.

3) We have exactly one other mech heavier than a Jenner that can JJ, and it's the mediocre Cataphract 3D. Having JJ on a solid heavy is a serious thing. Or rather, it used to be before JJ nerfs but that's, again, another story.

4) Yes, the cat has a large head hitbox, but it has the advantage of having really hard to focus side torsos when face on. This is a big part of what makes ballistic cats so good. This is less important for missile cats, but that's been the point of this whole post. The Catapult is pretty darn great at -everything-, and I think that's an issue.

You're right, Cat's have small ST's, but that's countered by the Mickey Mouse ears you described earlier. Pop those and the ST's take the damage. all really fast Cat's are using XL engines (I know I did) and get popped equally as fast because of it.

Unfortunately anything using JJ's other than Lights are using them to get to high places, they can't use them to jump out of the way of oncoming fire. They're just too heavy for that. They also can't TT/Change direction while using JJ's effectively like lights can.

[Kdogg788]

With the recent movement code and minor hit detection corrections, it is super easy to blow ears off Catapults. Any of the heavies can be viable, but it depends on how they're played. Nerfing the Catapult is unnessessary, as the Cataphract can be piloted just as effectively, and the upcoming Jagermech will be every bit as powerful.

In short, I highly doubt anything will be done in this situation. The poll says it all. No overwhelming evidence the Catapult is truly overpowered within the context of the game as a whole.

-k

[KuruptU4Fun]

LaserAngel, on 30 January 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Would you care to explain the situation with LRMcats? I play nothing but my Founder's C1 right now and since I have my Cats mastered I keep my K2 for PPC fire support. It takes two crummy pilots to tango but PPCs beat LRMs and LRMs beat PPC. No, really you need to understand the aspects of both weapon systems to win against another pilot. Guess what can also beat LRMs? Better LRMs!

Artemis is a must for anyone trying to use LRMs. I can beat other LRM boats at their own game in my C1 just with Artemis and the GXP/C-Bills dumped into modules. My missiles are halfway to their target when they're just firing. On top of that people using trickle fire launchers for a LRM 15/20.

Depending on how you are using either an LRM Cat or a PPC Cat depends on who's going to win. Unfortunately Artemis took a BIG hit in the advantage dept. when it became Direct Fire only. Any good pilot knows how to use cover to stay out of that situation.