371 replies to this topic

[Kdogg788]

LaserAngel, on 30 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Would you be so kind to show us your loadout?

It can be done with the Ilya, as the Ilya has a ballistic in the torso.

LaserAngel, on 30 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

The hardpoints don't matter here in this conversation, it's the torso twist. Which the Stalker has a terrible twist and you never lose your arms on the Stalker. You lose the sides or CT.

We will have to agree to disagree here. With the debate being as it is and the poll results as they are, don't count on any changes in torso twist. The Catapult is meant to be a little more nimble and twistable than a Stalker.

LaserAngel, on 30 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

In the arms not the torso. The Jagermech will probably be a lot better at cover shooting though compared to the lower torso ballistic points on the K2.

So there is a chance you can have dual arm mounted AC20s on the Jager which will have much more range vertically than those on the Catapult.

Debate has become a battle of Cat-lovers vs. Cat-haters. There are many more "cheese" build and "boats" on other chassis and not just Catapults. The level of modification is not going away, and if I had to guess, mech characteristics are not going to really be altered as drastically as some here want them to be.

-k

[Mechteric]

Alexandrix, on 30 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

I just wish my cataphract didn't have tiny t-rex arms

The phract's arms ain't tiny... besides just look at the Stalker's arms!

[Tehtos]

Cats feel easy to take down because of their giant CT region. You can hit their CT from every angle. The only time their front CT can't be hit is when they are facing away from you, in which case the rear CT becomes a nice huge target.

Comparatively, when an Atlas turns to the side, you can no longer target its CT, you can only hit the arms. Even the Stalker was designed to that hitting the side of its nose hits the RT or LT. On the Cat, the side of the nose is considered part of the CT.

[LaserAngel]

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

It can be done with the Ilya, as the Ilya has a ballistic in the torso.

It can be done on the Cataphract 3D as well but you either pick no speed or no armor and feeding two different weapon systems. I have never seen such a build in the field outisde of the mention here. It's shy of joke build in my book.

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

We will have to agree to disagree here. With the debate being as it is and the poll results as they are, don't count on any changes in torso twist. The Catapult is meant to be a little more nimble and twistable than a Stalker.

So give the Catapult the Stalker 3F's torso twist? The Stalker already suffers the penalties of being a 3/5 speed mech (48.6 kph in MWO) and lacking jump jets. Yet, people cry DON"T TOUCH MY CATAPULT TORSO TWIST every time.

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

ISo there is a chance you can have dual arm mounted AC20s on the Jager which will have much more range vertically than those on the Catapult.

The Jagermech is a mech built entirely around its ballistics. The Guass and AC/20 K2 are just products of the limitations of this game, heat, hardpoints and convergence, on top of the already insane torso twist of the Catapult. Double Heat Sinks enabled heavy energy weapons but they also enabled the SRM and AC/20 Cat too. It is a very complex issue.

[Alexandrix]

CapperDeluxe, on 30 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

The phract's arms ain't tiny... besides just look at the Stalker's arms!

well,I don't mean the actual physical size.I mean the limited movement of the arms.The arm sway range on the cataphract is very limited in comparison to other chassis with mobile arms.Evidently the arms on the phract were clipping thru some art work/modelling on the mech some time back,so they just limited the phracts arm movement so that it didn't clip anymore,and never actually fixed it.

Basically,the cataphract should be given the catapult's linda blair/exorcist like torso twist range to make up for it's terrible range of arm motion.

Edited by Alexandrix, 30 January 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Catapults are in no way more powerful than Cataphracts, and the only other Heavy to compare it to is designed for Strike warfare. The Jagermech isn't out yet to compare it to (and is a specialist mech which gives up almost all armor for ballistic weapon tonnage), and the Orion is still distant. So, I would say anyone who thinks Catapults are more powerful than other heavy mechs have to reevaluate their method of comparison.

As far as the torso twist range, considering this mech is supposed to be able to bring its arm weapons to bear to the rear as well as front and side arcs, the Catapult is actually -more- restricted in its firing arcs than it is supposed to be. If anything, it is too restricted. Now, if they make the torso twist the same as other mechs -and- give the Catapult the ability to fire all arm weapons anywhere around the mech (360 degree firing capability), then it might work.

[LaserAngel]

Jakob Knight, on 30 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Catapults are in no way more powerful than Cataphracts, and the only other Heavy to compare it to is designed for Strike warfare. The Jagermech isn't out yet to compare it to (and is a specialist mech which gives up almost all armor for ballistic weapon tonnage), and the Orion is still distant. So, I would say anyone who thinks Catapults are more powerful than other heavy mechs have to reevaluate their method of comparison.

Besides the very high shoulder energy points on the Cataphract, what are the benefits? It can be replicated using the K2's arm points for cover based shooting. Unless you go XL, the mere 5 tons is of little benefit and you'll pop many times faster than a Catapult.

Jakob Knight, on 30 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

As far as the torso twist range, considering this mech is supposed to be able to bring its arm weapons to bear to the rear as well as front and side arcs, the Catapult is actually -more- restricted in its firing arcs than it is supposed to be. If anything, it is too restricted. Now, if they make the torso twist the same as other mechs -and- give the Catapult the ability to fire all arm weapons anywhere around the mech (360 degree firing capability), then it might work.

How is it more restricted when you can run away from danger and still alpha strike?

[MegaBusta]

CapperDeluxe, on 30 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

The phract's arms ain't tiny... besides just look at the Stalker's arms!

I think he means its range of motion.

It's just sad, really.

There's only a 5 ton difference between the the two Cats, but one feels agile and nimble for its weight and the other feels like a lumbering oaf. It's like night and day.

[John Norad]

Redshift2k5, on 29 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

The CPLT is also the mech with the easier to shoot head hitbox, and it's arms are an easy target from a long way away.

This.

The only two Catapult 'variants' that have caused massive complaints are the Dual Gauss Cat and the Streak SRM Cat (maybe to a minor degree also the Dual AC20 Cat).
At least the Streak Cat should become less and less of an issue with improved netcode and hit detection.
It's not the Catapult per se, so hitting all variants as a result should not be the solution.

[GT Hawk]

I don't have a cat, and don't think I will. Its jut never been a big mech in y list to use, even in table top. Rather a archer if I am going to boat. But in all honesty fighting them dose not bother me. Take ears off or ct them fast, and most cats are done before I am.

[MegaBusta]

John Norad, on 30 January 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

This.

The only two Catapult 'variants' that have caused massive complaints are the Dual Gauss Cat and the Streak SRM Cat (maybe to a minor degree also the Dual AC20 Cat).
At least the Streak Cat should become less and less of an issue with improved netcode and hit detection.
It's not the Catapult per se, so hitting all variants as a result should not be the solution.

Most of the cataphract variants can also do dual gauss, and half can approximate the ac20 cat by swapping one out for a gauss rifle? You know why they aren't as popular? Because they can't reach the damn spider poking at their backside. Catapult pulls some exorcist crap and just turns around and looks at its assailant, then instagibs them. Not to mention the ability to hide both of those sensitive pieces of equipment in side torsos with low profiles.

The problem is that it can do these builds and be damn near impossible to blindside because it can track you through about 3/4 of its immediate radius WITHOUT MOVING ITS LEGS.

The cataphract combined torso AND arm flexibility is less than the catapult's torso. by a whole 60 degrees.

[Cranky Poed]

Brilig, on 29 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

That would be nice except then they could add an XL engine into their cat. The only thing that keeps AC-20 Cats from being super dangerous is that they cant go very fast. If you could fit an XL engine in them there would be no escaping them.

Otherwise I would be down with that idea. Having the guns in the ears would make them easier to take out.

Very valid point..well played sir.

[Josef Nader]

MegaBusta, on 30 January 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Most of the cataphract variants can also do dual gauss, and half can approximate the ac20 cat by swapping one out for a gauss rifle? You know why they aren't as popular? Because they can't reach the damn spider poking at their backside. Catapult pulls some exorcist crap and just turns around and looks at its assailant, then instagibs them. Not to mention the ability to hide both of those sensitive pieces of equipment in side torsos with low profiles.

The problem is that it can do these builds and be damn near impossible to blindside because it can track you through about 3/4 of its immediate radius WITHOUT MOVING ITS LEGS.

The cataphract combined torso AND arm flexibility is less than the catapult's torso. by a whole 60 degrees.

Yep, pretty much this.

[Taron]

Well, what's wrong with the Catapult? His arm movement range is the only real good thing on this mech. Without that.... I sell my Cat and play Phract - untill this one will be nerfed too, cause someone does not like it.

[Alex Wolfe]

Taron, on 30 January 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Well, what's wrong with the Catapult? His arm movement range is the only real good thing on this mech. Without that.... I sell my Cat and play Phract - untill this one will be nerfed too, cause someone does not like it.

You know, these threads have been popping up for nearly half a year now. It's way beyond mere "dislike". It's a legitimate issue. Cataphracts are fairly well balanced, few if any complain about those since their inception. Maybe about p2jam elmo, but at least those XL engines you can shoot.

And without the Exortwist, Catapult would still have great, symmetrical hardpoints, ease of boating and jump jets on most variants. Broken hitbox as well, unless that's fixed too.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 January 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[HighTest]

Sure, the huge torso twist provides an advantage, so far as that goes. The ability definitely makes the Catapult unique. But don't forget all of the negatives to the Cat chassis, most or all of which were previously mentioned:

- Head hitbox the size of a luxury SUV.
- Center torso hitbox accessible from nearly all 360 degrees.
- Every try pointing the torso ballistics DOWN a hill? Doesn't work. Only the arms rotate downwards.
- AC20s are very heavy and take up a ton of slots, and prevent the use of an XL engine. So sure, it has AC20s, but at a huge cost to speed.
- Besides the K2, most Cats have hardpoints in the arms and CT -- by far the easiest parts of the mech to hit
- Loading cats down with LRM20s, Gauss Rifles, AC20s and their respective ammo doesn't leave a whole lot of tonnage for equally-useful things, like armor.
- Ballistic/missile Cats are very ammo dependent = more weight, less armor/speed.

Heck, you need something to compensate for all those weaknesses above.

As a Catapult owner, and non-Catapult owner, I don't feel it to be any more OP than any of my other mechs. Well, except maybe the Awesome, which has the front profile and the heat issues of a barn fire. I have no trouble killing Catapults in my other mechs. And due to some of the ideosyncracies above, it actually took me quite a while to even get decent with piloting the Cat. In the wrong hands a Catapult is nearly useless.

The only time I typically get owned (in any mech) by a GassCat or AC20Cat or SRMCat is when they sneak up behind me and core me out with an Alpha to my rear, or when I'm already on death's door. And I give full props to those pilots for having the sense and the skill to do it.

[soarra]

k2 - you cockpit
missile boat srm or lrm take off arms and laugh at them..

[Throat Punch]

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

So there is a chance you can have dual arm mounted AC20s on the Jager which will have much more range vertically than those on the Catapult.

-k

I highly doubt that, as the only canon mech I can think of that can mount AC/20's in the arms is the King Crab because of its lack of hand actuators.

Edited by Morsdraco, 30 January 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[LaserAngel]

Morsdraco, on 30 January 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

I highly doubt that, as the only canon mech I can think of that can mount AC/20's in the arms is the King Crab because of its lack of hand actuators.

The King Crab splits those AC/20 between the arms and torso.

http://mwomercs.com/...83#entry1778983

The Jagermech only has shoulder and upper arm actuators. One more thing, how many of you guys are willing to endure my LRM 30 fire at 500m to try to headshot my Catapult? Incoming Missile even from a single launcher is an excellent form of suppression.

Edited by LaserAngel, 30 January 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[soarra]

LaserAngel, on 30 January 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

The King Crab splits those AC/20 between the arms and torso.

http://mwomercs.com/...83#entry1778983

The Jagermech only has shoulder and upper arm actuators. One more thing, how many of you guys are willing to endure my LRM 30 fire at 500m to try to headshot my Catapult? Incoming Missile even from a single launcher is an excellent form of suppression.

do it all the time. its not hard.