371 replies to this topic

[Panzerman03]

I hate these silly crusades to get something nerfed. The Catapult is fine. I have two Catapults and three Cataphracts in my bays. Your claim that the Cat has so many advantages that it hurts the metagame is flat out asinine.

Where there is overlap in the roles between the heavies, the Catapult and Cataphract each offer unique approaches where pure min-maxing won't necessarily give you the "best" answer. That's balanced. If you go hobbling torso twist and arm range of motion on the Catapult, the phract becomes the de-facto heavy brawler and direct fire-support mech, with the only reason to run a Catapult being LRM support or SRM spam.

[Kylere]

Wrenchfarm, on 30 January 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

C'mon, don't dispute the skill of moving their head slightly left or right. You might hurt their feelings. They might start to realize they are coming up with patently ridiculous excuses to justify their easy-cheddar mech.

I am sorry that you cannot counter the Catapult as a mech. You should just like the ECM/light/LRM/SRM/etc whiners.

[Josef Nader]

I'm hoping that JJs stop being so horrible soon. It'll be a shame if we get the Highlander who might as well just not have them, when this is a mech who canonically goomba stomp enemy mechs with it's jump jets.

As for the STs, yeah, they only help ballistic Cats, but they are a -big- help for ballistic cats. Splat cats are less scary because they are so easily disarmed, which I've already acknowledged. The splat cat is pretty tame as far as Cheesecats are concerned. Sure, it's powerful, but it's got drawbacks.

This is about the Catapult chassis as a whole. The reason that there always seems to be a cheese build for it is because the chassis itself is near perfect. It's got fantastic hardpoints, larger torso reach than anything in the game by far, and a number of other advantages that are offset by the relatively tame disadvantages of having a big head hitbox and large ears. Plenty of mechs have large head hitboxes or bulky weapon emplacements (you can neuter the RT of a Hunchback while he's presenting his left shoulder, and anyone who misses an Awesome's head hitbox needs their glasses checked). I'm saying that the Cat still has too many advantages compared to other mechs to be truly balanced by it's disadvantages.

[Kdogg788]

My last reply here as this is getting ridiculous.

Catapult A1: Knock off the ears.
Catapult K2: Gausscat - Explode the Gauss or core them.
Catapult K2: AC20 Cat - Can be outmaneuvered or outranged as well as having a slow recharge.

Any Catapult loadout can be recreated with another mech chassis. Any Catapult build can be destroyed in the field as easy as any other. I've ridden in and destroyed every possible Catapult build you can imagine and I can say with my hand on a stack of bibles, that the Catapult is no stronger than any other heavy.

-k

[LaserAngel]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Depending on how you are using either an LRM Cat or a PPC Cat depends on who's going to win. Unfortunately Artemis took a BIG hit in the advantage dept. when it became Direct Fire only. Any good pilot knows how to use cover to stay out of that situation.

The Direct Fire only aspect of Artemis is barely an issue when you are at full speed, jump jetting to maintain line of sight, and you just get lock-on to have the missile guidance do the rest. Plenty of PPC and Gauss shots miss while doing that. ECM is the only thing that hampers the Catapult's ability to hit two targets, one with LRMs and another with the lasers.

The spread and tracking benefits are side effects compared to the MASSIVE benefit of halving the lock-on time. That applies to both direct and indirect fire modes.

I'm disgusted by how much I know about using LRM systems and yet hate people that pilot LRMboats.

Edited by LaserAngel, 30 January 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

As for the STs, yeah, they only help ballistic Cats, but they are a -big- help for ballistic cats. Splat cats are less scary because they are so easily disarmed, which I've already acknowledged. The splat cat is pretty tame as far as Cheesecats are concerned. Sure, it's powerful, but it's got drawbacks.

Actually, sides make XL engine a no-brainer on any Catapult besides AC40 (which in turn enjoys its unparalleled pinpoint firepower tucked in the invisible sides). It's a huge boon.

[Josef Nader]

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Any Catapult loadout can be recreated with another mech chassis. Any Catapult build can be destroyed in the field as easy as any other. I've ridden in and destroyed every possible Catapult build you can imagine and I can say with my hand on a stack of bibles, that the Catapult is no stronger than any other heavy.

-k

I wasn't aware there was another mech that could mount 6 SRM 6s or twin AC20s. I'd love to play a twin AC20 mech that didn't leave me needing a shower after I used it to wash the shame away. Which chassis is that?

[LaserAngel]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Actually, sides make XL engine a no-brainer on any Catapult besides AC40 (which in turn enjoys its unparalleled pinpoint firepower tucked in the invisible sides). It's a huge boon.

The XL engine Catapult is most vulnerable from the sides and not head on in my experience. That'll rule out the dual AC/20 cat but you'll still have to deal with the SRM/Gauss ones.Any other brawler with XL will pop from the side torsos except the Catapult. Head on the CT/Head take the most punishment but that's why I stack my C1 heavily on my front CT.

From the side, the boxes offer little cover and would be the best direction to hit the Catapult if I didn't have the ability to turn and face you.

[TheSteelRhino]

Really..enough with the NERF threads. You nerf this, and then mech X will now become the OP build that everyone will want nerfed.

8 months ago it was Hunchback 4 SP's running at 105 or 112 or so with SRM6's. That got us engine restrictions.

The bottom line is this.

The Cat is a GOOD design. It's flexible. Can it carry the firepower or a stalker...no...? Can it carry the armour of a cataphract or an awesome? No. Is it as fast as a Dragon? No. It is a reasonably good combo of firepower/speed/armour however.

If you boat up SRM6's are you extremely dangerous..YES..tradeoff..no long range attacks..and bigger maps start arriving in February. Will it still even be relevent?

K2...it's almost a different mech entirely in some ways right? No missiles...is it OP?....it's dangerous as a gausscat..and the gauss cat is painfully slow. How about AC20 cat...even more dangerous...but ..bigger maps are coming.

There are more mechs coming out, that will take some of these builds and do them better. There are larger maps coming that will tend to marginalize some of the "scary" short range builds.

Patience. Change is coming...stop crying "Nerf".

[Kdogg788]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I wasn't aware there was another mech that could mount 6 SRM 6s or twin AC20s. I'd love to play a twin AC20 mech that didn't leave me needing a shower after I used it to wash the shame away. Which chassis is that?

Cataphract can load up AC20 + Gauss. Stalker can boat 5 SRM6 with added benefit of lasers and harder to destroy arms. At this point we are really just talking semantics here. I'm sure with less actuators, the Jager may possibly be able to carry 2 AC20s. I don't know about you but I rarely ever see Guasscats cleaning house like they used to, and AC20 Cats may have a good short range alpha, but they can be killed just as easily. While the Cat is in my arsenal, it is not my only mech as there are other options, and the Catapult has never stood out as a ridiculous mech as the 3L once was.

-k

[Rift Hawk]

Problem here isn't the mech, its missle damage. 2.5 Damage per missile is too much. A SRM6 is the most powerful weapon in the game, and it seems like the Cat is OP because it can fit 6 of them. My opinion is that either Missile damage needs to be less, say 1.5 per missile or SRMs need to take up more weight and slots. 15 damage is the same as gauss which is far heavier and slot dependent. Given SRMs aren't focused damage like the gauss but that doesn't really matter when you can rip off every single gun on a mech with one volley.

[Aldon]

OP,

I must respectfully disagree. The A1 Cat has plenty of weaknesses to combat its SRM firepower. People need to dream up other mech builds to combat it. The main reason it seems so powerful is the tendency of many matches turning into brawls.

Hint: Stay out of its range and blast it.

[KuruptU4Fun]

The K2 '20 Cat seems to be in favor now anyways... Whatever it's called...

[Kensaisama]

The majority of these Knee-jerk reactions to a miniscule adjustment proposal are amusing.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Aldon, on 30 January 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

OP,

I must respectfully disagree. The A1 Cat has plenty of weaknesses to combat its SRM firepower. People need to dream up other mech builds to combat it. The main reason it seems so powerful is the tendency of many matches turning into brawls.

Hint: Stay out of its range and blast it.

Josef's bigger point in this thread was to reduce the torso twist range/speed down more so than weapons loadouts.

[Rift Hawk]

Kensaisama, on 30 January 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Knee-jerk reactions.

Things we should never say again #1

[LaserAngel]

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Cataphract can load up AC20 + Gauss.

Would you be so kind to show us your loadout?

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Stalker can boat 5 SRM6 with added benefit of lasers and harder to destroy arms. At this point we are really just talking semantics here.

The hardpoints don't matter here in this conversation, it's the torso twist. Which the Stalker has a terrible twist and you never lose your arms on the Stalker. You lose the sides or CT.

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I'm sure with less actuators, the Jager may possibly be able to carry 2 AC20s.

In the arms not the torso. The Jagermech will probably be a lot better at cover shooting though compared to the lower torso ballistic points on the K2.

Kdogg788, on 30 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I don't know about you but I rarely ever see Guasscats cleaning house like they used to, and AC20 Cats may have a good short range alpha, but they can be killed just as easily. While the Cat is in my arsenal, it is not my only mech as there are other options, and the Catapult has never stood out as a ridiculous mech as the 3L once was.

I recall this being somewhat addressed before but the playing a game of keep away from the SRM or AC/20 cat isn't going to make the problem go away or win the match.

[Josef Nader]

Aldon, on 30 January 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

OP,

I must respectfully disagree. The A1 Cat has plenty of weaknesses to combat its SRM firepower. People need to dream up other mech builds to combat it. The main reason it seems so powerful is the tendency of many matches turning into brawls.

Hint: Stay out of its range and blast it.

Again, it's not that the A1 cat specifically is OP, or that the K2 specifically is OP. There's nothing wrong with their weapon loadouts, as I've said many times. They afford the mech plenty of weaknesses. I just feel as though the Catapult is still too good in regards to the current meta, and have proposed a positively miniscule change to make it more comparable to other heavies. The Catapult currently has the widest torso twist of anything in the game, and very nearly the widest reach (only overcome by the arms of the Spider and the Hunchback). It can also alpha strike at it's full twist, unlike other mechs. All I'd be interested in doing is shaving a few degrees off of that torso twist to make it less fantastic in close in brawls and whatnot. This has nothing to do with the splat cat in particular, nor does it have anything to do with the KC20, gausscat, or Streakapult. This is trying to address the root behind -why- all of the above cheese builds were based off of Catapults and nothing else.

[Talan01]

My 2 cents as a cat pilot. Your millage may vary.

Some specs. I main the K2 variant with 2 AC10s (3 tons of ammo) 4 ML and an 280 XL engine. (want to try the 2 AC20 and the 2 Gauss builds)

I play as a support mech. The cat is not a brawler mech. At least in my experience. (Again, just my opinion) I get killed too easily if I try to go toe to toe with any other heavy. I do better if I follow an Atlas or a group of brawler mechs and shoot at what ever mech they target. Or if I get to shoot at a mech at the AC10s max range since it seems brawler mechs are built for short range combat. Sure the torso twist is crazy, but I am fragile, so I will take what ever advantage I can get in the catapult mech only because I also know the cats weaknesses.

Pros (K2)
Great ballistic builds.
Torso turn radius
Convergence on ballistic weapons
Great sniper mech

Cons
Hit boxes (Have been head-shotted more then once)
Fragile
Elevation differences. (I can't bring my ballistic weapons down upon the enemy if they are too high or to low)
Poor brawler mech.

Again, your millage may vary. This is just my humble opinion.

Edited by Talan01, 30 January 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Alexandrix]

I just wish my cataphract didn't have tiny t-rex arms