84 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Now this make perfect sense and some good physics.

[Noth]

While nice, I ultimately have this to say: Stop putting bandaids on it and just fix ECM. Bandaids don't actually fix the issue.

[BlackSquirrel]

Asmudius Heng, on 29 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

ECM did counter BAP - but ECM never did half of what it does in MWO so ...

Actually kinda got it letter for letter: http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite


"

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clanequivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.[3]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.[4]T

and the rules

The Inner Sphere Guardian ECM weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical spaces. It has an operational range of six hexes. (180m)
The Clan ECM Suite system weighs 1 ton and occupies a single critical space. In every other way it's identical to the Inner Sphere version. "

Edited by BlackSquirrel, 29 January 2013 - 05:29 PM.

[DocBach]

Sarna is not a legitimate source in regards to rules as its a wiki that only provides a generalized description which is in direct conflict to how ecm is described in the tech readouts and actual rulebooks.

Edited by DocBach, 29 January 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[Orzorn]

BlackSquirrel, on 29 January 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Actually kinda got it letter for letter: http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite


"

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clanequivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.[3]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.[4]T

and the rules

The Inner Sphere Guardian ECM weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical spaces. It has an operational range of six hexes. (180m)
The Clan ECM Suite system weighs 1 ton and occupies a single critical space. In every other way it's identical to the Inner Sphere version. "

Depends on if you look at it from a letter or a rule perspective.

Rules wise, ECM doesn't effect a single missile system, only missile related systems; Artemis and NARC. Word wise, it does, but then again, you have to remember that LRMs aren't necessarily guided in Battletech (they sort of are. Its weird), although SSRMs are, and yet they aren't blocked by ECM either.

Edited by Orzorn, 29 January 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[StoneMason]

I'm sorry, but this is legit ******* ********. It's taking a huge leap to try and counter a poorly thought out ECM mechanic. PPC's should screw with your sensors, map and targeting for a bit while the blue dances over your Mech. They should NOT disrupt a hardened electronic warfare suite, however OP it is.

[BlackSquirrel]

Well I agree I just find it funny that some people scream for letter of the law so to speak then when it comes to ECM...

WTF!!!

I'm of the opinion some things need to be tweaked, such as scaling for mech tonnage and effectiveness. EG: 1.5 tons on a raven should not be the same for an Atlas which would need a larger more robust system to mask it etc.

[Asmudius Heng]

BlackSquirrel, on 29 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Well I agree I just find it funny that some people scream for letter of the law so to speak then when it comes to ECM...

WTF!!!

I'm of the opinion some things need to be tweaked, such as scaling for mech tonnage and effectiveness. EG: 1.5 tons on a raven should not be the same for an Atlas which would need a larger more robust system to mask it etc.

Yes indeed. In fact the length of time for a mech to detect another on the HUD should be based on tonnage, proximity, and if your reticle is trained on them - so light mechs migth take longer to lock up than heavier mechs. Allowing scouts to be you know - scouts.

Then you could make ECM effect the time and range etc of these rules rather than a flat out blanket ban on targetting.

[DocBach]

Ecm is described as masking information about a unit. What it should do is just provide a type class, but not give other target data ljke damage or weapons loadout. To actually be affected by a ecm for jamming purposes according to the tac ops rules you have to actually be in the radius of the ecm bubble

[AlexWildeagle]

Novakaine, on 29 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Now this make perfect sense and some good physics.

Well you need to be more specific.

As to the ER PPC/PPC disabling ECM thats really bad physics as well as bad basic electronics and electricity.

As someone who spent 6 years repairing the ECM module for the EA-6B as well as the radar system for the FA-18 I can tell you they are both packages of trons. Each uses transistors, resistors, diodes and such. Any blast that would scramble the ECM package would also affect the other electronics.
So, we have a PPC blast that magically only affects one portion of the electronic systems but against non-ecm mechs it does nothing? Whats next Devs, mages and priests?

[Vapor Trail]

AlexWildeagle, on 29 January 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

Well you need to be more specific.

As to the ER PPC/PPC disabling ECM thats really bad physics as well as bad basic electronics and electricity.

As someone who spent 6 years repairing the ECM module for the EA-6B as well as the radar system for the FA-18 I can tell you they are both packages of trons. Each uses transistors, resistors, diodes and such. Any blast that would scramble the ECM package would also affect the other electronics.
So, we have a PPC blast that magically only affects one portion of the electronic systems but against non-ecm mechs it does nothing? Whats next Devs, mages and priests?

And from a realism standpoint anything that "interferes" with an ECM package is just as likely to conduct a smoke-test of the system, right?

EMP is usually an all-or-nothing kind of thing. If you lose a system to EMP, it's down till you pull it and replace the burned out components. If it stays up... well it's still up.

[pont]

ECM should do 2 things: block communication and prevent sophisticated scans. Blocking scans in MWO should mean you don't get weapon/damage readout on a covered mech and maybe you don't get their name and A/B/C/D designation either. Blocking communications should mean you can't chat (moot point since people use TeamSpeak) and can't share targeting data with anyone -- that means people can't target mechs you are spotting and you can't target mechs you don't have LoS on. The idea that you can't target someone *period* under ECM is just stupid. Part of what makes ECM overpowered is just the fact that you can't easily tell your teammates "target alpha", even when you're not under their ECM.

[DocBach]

Pont - in support of your idea:


Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196:
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

[Novawrecker]

DocBach, on 29 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Sarna is not a legitimate source in regards to rules as its a wiki that only provides a generalized description which is in direct conflict to how ecm is described in the tech readouts and actual rulebooks.

Except that in this, case, that descript is almost a carbon copy from the texts.

[Jungle Rhino]

This is a slippery slope approach to game design/balance. While it is great to see the devs trying something I personally think there are better alternatives than this approach.

Also, if the PPC only counters the mech it hits, then it isn't going to help when dealing with overlapping ECM bubbles. In short to make this even semi useful you will need to coordinate a simultaneous strike against all ECM equipped enemy mechs - which from my experience is typically 2-3. This change isn't really going to help PuGs without voice comms who lack this level of coordination.

ECM is still a no brainer selection for any mech that can carry it. Until this is not the case it is still broken.

[Accursed Richards]

AlexWildeagle, on 29 January 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

As to the ER PPC/PPC disabling ECM thats really bad physics as well as bad basic electronics and electricity.

As someone who spent 6 years repairing the ECM module for the EA-6B as well as the radar system for the FA-18 I can tell you they are both packages of trons. Each uses transistors, resistors, diodes and such. Any blast that would scramble the ECM package would also affect the other electronics.
So, we have a PPC blast that magically only affects one portion of the electronic systems but against non-ecm mechs it does nothing? Whats next Devs, mages and priests?

Every time you bring real physics and modern military knowledge into an argument about giant humanoid robots in the thirty-first century, God kills a cat girl.

Please, think of the cat girls.

[Sheraf]

Broceratops, on 29 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

i like this. you can shoot a light with a ppc and then your lights can streak him up. or if your'e a stalker with streaks, do it yourself

this is actually a pretty big light ecm nerf imo. it makes them much more vulnerable in a brawl.

If you can already shoot a light with PPC, there is no need for this effect? They gonna die anyway.

[Novawrecker]

Jungle Rhino, on 30 January 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Also, if the PPC only counters the mech it hits, then it isn't going to help when dealing with overlapping ECM bubbles.

Moot point as the same thing occurs with ECCM and multiple ECM.

We now have an additional resource to help reduce the impact ECM has, USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!


I swear, it's like most of you got the cake, but are complaining because the frosting isn't your exact flavor. F'ing spoiled brats.

[Noth]

Novawrecker, on 30 January 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Moot point as the same thing occurs with ECCM and multiple ECM.

We now have an additional resource to help reduce the impact ECM has, USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!


I swear, it's like most of you got the cake, but are complaining because the frosting isn't your exact flavor. F'ing spoiled brats.

No we are complaining because we keep getting bandaids for something that could be fixed and balanced by actually changing the issue rather than piling more on top of it in the hopes that it will go away. It is a poor way of balancing the game and doesn't fix the issues that people have with it.

[Jungle Rhino]

Novawrecker, on 30 January 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Moot point as the same thing occurs with ECCM and multiple ECM.

We now have an additional resource to help reduce the impact ECM has, USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!


I swear, it's like most of you got the cake, but are complaining because the frosting isn't your exact flavor. F'ing spoiled brats.

How is it a moot point? The practicalities will mean this PPC change will only have a meaningful impact on well organised teams and even then probably not so much. I played an 8 man the other night where the enemy showed up with 6 ECM Ravens, an ECM Spider (raven pilot got bored?), and an ECM Commando - how does this change help?

ECM is ******** and I say again - ECM will not be fixed until it is available to ALL mechs, and people choose not to take it due to tonnage/slots considerations. We are a million miles away from this paradigm it simply has too much impact on gameplay and most importantly makes the game frustrating and LESS FUN.