203 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Suprentus, on 01 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

The humor was to added to help emphasize my point, but I don't think you got it. I'll condense it for you. No matter how many hypothetical variables you throw out there, one less ECM on the other team is always advantageous.

You're acting as if a team that has some PPCs will be one that leaves ECMs behind. You do know that the team that has more functioning ECMs is the one that gets ECM coverage, right?

I got your attempt at humor, just felt it was more stupid than funny. Hint. Don't quit your day job. I never said anything about the PPC team lacking ECM; only that smart ECM players, at the very least, would be paired. Thus this little "buff"; isn't much of one. I mean sure it will work great vs bad players. But what's the difference there? Bad ECM players always went down quickly.

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Since we're loving hypotheticals, here's another one. Suppose you're in a build that runs ER PPCs and Streaks (like one of mine already does), and you're all of a sudden face to face with an Atlas DDC (like what has happened to me several times now). You can now give him the old one-two. PPCs as one, then a small window to fire streaks at him as a second shot at him. One

No. It doesn't at all. Sounds like a quick way to become a death for your team. Are you seriously rejoicing of the ability to fight a D-DC with streaks or is this more of your humor?

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It's even more useful if you just use normal PPCs, and supposing they can still proc under 90m. You're not completely neutered anymore, and you can throw streaks around.

You are correct here. PPCs allow SSRM not be completely useless.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 February 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Suprentus]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

I got your attempt at humor, just felt it was more stupid than funny. Hint. Don't quit your day job. I never said anything about the PPC team lacking ECM; only that smart ECM players, at the very least, would be paired. Thus this little "buff"; isn't much of one. I mean sure it will work great vs bad players. But what's the difference there? Bad ECM players always went down quickly.

Well if you miss the point completely, of course all you'd see is stupid. You're still not getting it. If you can hypothetically say that the enemy team has a backup ECM, then so can I hypothetically say that so do I. It's a pretty ridiculous assumption to say that a single enemy contingency means that there exists no friendly contingency as well. PPC can thus still have some use in countering ECM.

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

No. It doesn't at all. Sounds like a quick way to become a death for your team. Are you seriously rejoicing of the ability to fight a D-DC with streaks or is this more of your humor?

Ok, you're really getting dense on me here. I'm starting to wonder if you've had a brain aneurysm of some sort. I'm guessing the only way you can visualize that scenario is if I stood still and played Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots with the Atlas head on, and not utilized any sort of maneuverability. If I'm to the Atlas' side or back and deploying my weapons, how would that be a quick way to become a death? I'm starting to wonder how you play now, if your scenarios all involve playing chicken with the enemy.

Any extra damage you can deal onto an enemy, no matter what class, is a good thing. I've taken out Assault Mechs with nothing but 3 Small Lasers, for crying out loud. Streaks wouldn't be the primary damage dealer. That's why it's called the old one-two.

Edited by Suprentus, 01 February 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

You are correct here. PPCs allow SSRM not be completely useless.

Well, SSRMs are plenty effective now. So long as you have ECM, too.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 01 February 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Solis Obscuri, on 01 February 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Well, SSRMs are plenty effective now. So long as you have ECM, too.

Interesting question. Will a PPC disable ECM in "Counter Mode"
This would mean my Cicada, which normally has issues with ECM SSRM Ravens and Commandos could keep its ECM on Disrupt and break enemy "Counter" ECM with PPC burst (assuming there is only 1 mech on me).

[StalaggtIKE]

Suprentus, on 01 February 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Well if you miss the point completely, of course all you'd see is stupid. You're still not getting it. If you can hypothetically say that the enemy team has a backup ECM, then so can I hypothetically say that so do I. It's a pretty ridiculous assumption to say that a single enemy contingency means that there exists no friendly contingency as well.

So hypothetically I could bring more ECM mechs and hypothetically you could bring more ECM mechs.


Kind of like how games are right now!? So, essentially everything would remain the same.

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PPC can thus still have some use in countering ECM.

I can agree with that; even a 1% chance is of some use.

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Ok, you're really getting dense on me here. I'm starting to wonder if you've had a brain aneurysm of some sort. I'm guessing the only way you can visualize that scenario is if I stood still and played Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots with the Atlas head on, and not utilized any sort of maneuverability. If I'm to the Atlas' side or back and deploying my weapons, how would that be a quick way to become a death? I'm starting to wonder how you play now, if your scenarios all involve playing chicken with the enemy.

Is that how you conduct a debate? Stomp your foot and call everyone that doesn't agree with you stupid? Grow up! No, perhaps my day job comment was too much. Sorry.
Actually funny thing is I visualized you firing your PPC and SSRM into the Atlas back, just as you described. I just saw ultimately failure due to such low dps and moderate speed, at best, to carry any significant amount of PPC plus SSRM to put more than a dent on an Atlas.

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Any extra damage you can deal onto an enemy, no matter what class, is a good thing. I've taken out Assault Mechs with nothing but 3 Small Lasers, for crying out loud. Streaks wouldn't be the primary damage dealer. That's why it's called the old one-two.

Cool story, bro. I've killed plenty of Assaults in my RVN-3L. Should we swap more war stories?

[MaddMaxx]

StalaggtIKE, on 31 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Now a more realistic scenario based on reality.

Scenario:
D-DC gets hit by PPC. You are spotted and the rest of his team starts firing at you. His D-DC buddy continue to cover everyone with ECM.

Result:
You just gave away your position, if you're not already dead.

This change to PPC only emphasizes the fact that more ECM mechs are needed for consistant cover. Something any half-wit ECM pilot would have been doing already; which is not traveling solo without ECM backup.

So the D-DC's are all covering each other with their overlapping ECM bubbles? Why exactly? Bunching up just make them easier to see coming and easier to hit from range.

Well I just assume that at some point, I will have to shoot at the enemy and as such give away my "current" position. I am unaware how you shoot the enemy without doing so, but I am pretty certain that there are many here that would really like to know...

[Suprentus]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

So hypothetically I could bring more ECM mechs and hypothetically you could bring more ECM mechs.


Kind of like how games are right now!? So, essentially everything would remain the same.

Except with a new variable. Funny how that works.

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Is that how you conduct a debate? Stomp your foot and call everyone that doesn't agree with you stupid? Grow up! No, perhaps my day job comment was too much. Sorry.

I've tried analogy after analogy, and you're simply not understanding it. I don't know what you want.

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Actually funny thing is I visualized you firing your PPC and SSRM into the Atlas back, just as you described. I just saw ultimately failure due to such low dps and moderate speed, at best, to carry any significant amount of PPC plus SSRM to put more than a dent on an Atlas.

You don't have a very broad mind if that's all you can visualize. I already have taken out Atlases with ER PPCs and Streaks.

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Cool story, bro. I've killed plenty of Assaults in my RVN-3L. Should we swap more war stories?

Did you use streaks? Because that's impossible and hardly puts a dent in anything.

[Jakob Knight]

Suprentus, on 01 February 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Since we're loving hypotheticals, here's another one. Suppose you're in a build that runs ER PPCs and Streaks (like one of mine already does), and you're all of a sudden face to face with an Atlas DDC (like what has happened to me several times now). You can now give him the old one-two. PPCs as one, then a small window to fire streaks at him as a second shot at him. One weapon enables use of the other now. Kind of adds a small layer of tactics to it, doesn't it?

It's even more useful if you just use normal PPCs, and supposing they can still proc under 90m. You're not completely neutered anymore, and you can throw streaks around.

Correct. Right up to the time you shutdown after your first volley from alpha-striking with both Streaks and PPCs. Then the Atlas will smile, brush off the minimal damage you have done to the armor, and lay into you knowing you will never have a chance to cool down to the point you can fire those PPCs again.

And, of course, he'll be even happier if you do this at 60 meters, as your PPCs will do almost no damage.

The number of mechs that can mount more than one PPC, enough streaks to matter, -and- enough heat sinks to use them in the current heat situation are limited to only the Awesome and Stalker. And those will, as noted, quickly turn into immobile targets quite fast using this tactic.

In short, PPCs are not the answer. They can help, but their ineffectiveness and high heat will restrict them from filling any role as anti-ECM for other weapons.

[StalaggtIKE]

Jakob Knight, on 01 February 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Correct. Right up to the time you shutdown after your first volley from alpha-striking with both Streaks and PPCs. Then the Atlas will smile, brush off the minimal damage you have done to the armor, and lay into you knowing you will never have a chance to cool down to the point you can fire those PPCs again.

And, of course, he'll be even happier if you do this at 60 meters, as your PPCs will do almost no damage.

The number of mechs that can mount more than one PPC, enough streaks to matter, -and- enough heat sinks to use them in the current heat situation are limited to only the Awesome and Stalker. And those will, as noted, quickly turn into immobile targets quite fast using this tactic.

In short, PPCs are not the answer. They can help, but their ineffectiveness and high heat will restrict them from filling any role as anti-ECM for other weapons.

Thank you for spelling out. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, FML.

[BigJim]

PPCs aren't a "counter" to ECM, any more than the the HUD disruption makes PPC the counter to aiming, or seeing.

Disruption is just an interesting, flavoursome side effect of the PPC.

[Solis Obscuri]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 01 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Interesting question. Will a PPC disable ECM in "Counter Mode"
This would mean my Cicada, which normally has issues with ECM SSRM Ravens and Commandos could keep its ECM on Disrupt and break enemy "Counter" ECM with PPC burst (assuming there is only 1 mech on me).

Probably could, assuming you could hit it once every five seconds (or so) with that one PPC. Of course if there's a second one around you might be hosed.

[Suprentus]

Jakob Knight, on 01 February 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Correct. Right up to the time you shutdown after your first volley from alpha-striking with both Streaks and PPCs. Then the Atlas will smile, brush off the minimal damage you have done to the armor, and lay into you knowing you will never have a chance to cool down to the point you can fire those PPCs again.

And, of course, he'll be even happier if you do this at 60 meters, as your PPCs will do almost no damage.

The number of mechs that can mount more than one PPC, enough streaks to matter, -and- enough heat sinks to use them in the current heat situation are limited to only the Awesome and Stalker. And those will, as noted, quickly turn into immobile targets quite fast using this tactic.

In short, PPCs are not the answer. They can help, but their ineffectiveness and high heat will restrict them from filling any role as anti-ECM for other weapons.

You people are so inflexible, so unimaginative. I already get success with ER PPCs (you know, the ones with no minimum range and run even hotter) and Streaks right now, and the heat hasn't even been fixed yet on them! So, it's not even theoretical that your scenario is wrong, it's tested personally. No wonder you guys QQ so much about all the mechanics. You're too narrow minded to even consider other tactics because you're so convinced they won't work.

Edited by Suprentus, 01 February 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[DocBach]

Suprentus, on 01 February 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

You people are so inflexible, so unimaginative. I already get success with ER PPCs (you know, the ones with no minimum range and run even hotter) and Streaks right now, and the heat hasn't even been fixed yet on them! So, it's not even theoretical that your scenario is wrong, it's tested personally. No wonder you guys QQ so much about all the mechanics. You're too narrow minded to even consider other tactics because you're so convinced they won't work.

The tactics could work, but it doesn't change the fact that PPC's affecting ECM is a small drop in the bucket compared to what needs to be done to achieve actual game balance.

[Suprentus]

DocBach, on 01 February 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

The tactics could work, but it doesn't change the fact that PPC's affecting ECM is a small drop in the bucket compared to what needs to be done to achieve actual game balance.

Agreed. I never claimed that PPCs are the end-all balancing mechanic to ECM. Still, it's a really nice bonus to have that can be a definite advantage in the right hands.

[Elkarlo]

I hate the Salami tactic Paul is giving us on ECM Counters

Now we get to the Normal Range Mech Sensors would have against ECM. It was 240 Meters.
We get now 250 Meters.

When will we get the BaP Range increase against ECM? Would be nice if we get the Range
increasings in ONE Chunk.
Together with BaP and Sensors we would have 375 Meters locking Range against ECM, which would allow...
Tactics as the Locking Window would be big enough.
To pass Informations etc against ECM Mechs through.

And yes ECM counters abilies of the BaP but only the Shut down Mech detection Ability.
The Range Increase of the BaP is untouched by ECM. (Maximum Tech. p.52 Double Blind Rules)

Edited by Elkarlo, 01 February 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Suprentus, on 01 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Agreed. I never claimed that PPCs are the end-all balancing mechanic to ECM. Still, it's a really nice bonus to have that can be a definite advantage in the right hands.

And that's all I ever said. It's about time you finally admitted it, instead of adding a bunch hypothetical nonsense.

Suprentus, on 01 February 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

You people are so inflexible, so unimaginative. I already get success with ER PPCs (you know, the ones with no minimum range and run even hotter) and Streaks right now, and the heat hasn't even been fixed yet on them! So, it's not even theoretical that your scenario is wrong, it's tested personally. No wonder you guys QQ so much about all the mechanics. You're too narrow minded to even consider other tactics because you're so convinced they won't work.

Please share your build. Enlighten us.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[DocBach]

Elkarlo, on 01 February 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

And yes ECM counters abilies of the BaP but only the Shut down Mech detection Ability.
The Range Increase of the BaP is untouched by ECM. (Maximum Tech. p.52 Double Blind Rules)

Also, Beagle Active Probe is actually suppose to have an easier time detecting and scanning ECM 'Mechs per the same rules.

[Suprentus]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

And that's all I ever said. It's about time you finally admitted it, instead of adding a bunch hypothetical nonsense.

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Please share your build. Enlighten us.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...28cf8aa5e43db32

This build is actually in anticipation for the Highlander PPC variant, which should be similar. I will be upgrading to that when it eventually comes out.

Edited by Suprentus, 01 February 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Suprentus, on 01 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

LOL. You got me.

Quote

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...28cf8aa5e43db32

This build is actually in anticipation for the Highlander PPC variant, which should be similar. I will be upgrading to that when it eventually comes out.

This is pretty much what I imagined. Here is my D-DC build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ca2b41c477ac8d.

As you can see it's about as fast as the Awesome with twice the dps and heavier armor (100+pts). I really don't like to speculate, but instead deal in numbers.
I am looking forward to the Highlander as well. It shall truly give the D-DC a run for it's money.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 February 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Suprentus]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 February 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

LOL. You got me.


This is pretty much what I imagined. Here is my D-DC build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ca2b41c477ac8d

As you can see it's about as fast as the Awesome with twice the dps and heavier armor (100+pts). I really don't like to speculate, but instead deal in numbers.
I am looking forward to the Highlander as well. It shall truly give the D-DC a run for it's money.

The "." at the end of your link screwed it up. FIFY

I prefer this D-DC loadout, myself: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7ef8b3ded7376f2

DPS isn't everything to me though, it all depends on the situation. My Awesome is all about positioning, precision, and knowing when to fire. It can also snipe and have a bigger range of motion with the arm-mounted ER PPCs. Those variables can't be put into numbers. I've had the advantage against Atlases and Stalkers by staying out of their main line of fire, merely because I could stick to their sides more and aim with my arm.

Edited by Suprentus, 01 February 2013 - 12:59 PM.