60 replies to this topic

[LaserAngel]

I wasn't around to use NARC in previous Mechwarrior titles but I believe it attracted ALL missiles fired to the poor sap that had the beacon planted on them.

mwhighlander, I was thinking the same thing for BAP. I'd want to see the ECM on the battlegrid/map along with all of the other detection benefits.

[Elessar]

It probes active beagles (i.e. not those, who spend the day lying lazy in their dog baskets)

[Kousagi]

mwhighlander, on 02 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Really, BAP should be the strong peice of equipment that is countered by ECM. Not the other way around. But that will require ECM being changed radically to do what its actually supposed to do, instead of ECM being Guardian Angel ECM suite (3052 tech, not even in this timeline!) stealth armor and most of null sig (minus hiding the thermal sig).

Then we could also argue that NARC needs to be changed, which would mean also changing missiles, too.



See? SRMs DO HAVE HOMING CAPABILITIES! Just they need a narc/tag to do so.

PLEASE! Everyone read up on what the actual equpiment is supposed to do! Understand why equipment right now is a joke not balanced at all!

If you are comparing to TT, BAP was hands down the biggest waste of space on a mech, at least rule wise... Double blind rules added some more use to it though. ECM does not imitate stealth armor or null sig ( well kinda, but its in the rules).... Stealth armor is the thermal hiding from null sig, and ECM copys the nullsigs sensor disruption. Though both systems are not as perfect as Null sig... This is why, if you look at the wiki you posted,it says ya need both stealth and ECM to equal a null sig... Double blind rules again use this same thing... Since the Angel ECM is equal to null sig in sensor disruption.

As for Narc, its much the same thing as Artemis, just a weapon version. Ya Need Narc-LRM ammo to use it, just like Artemis needs special ammo.

Edited by Kousagi, 02 February 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[DocBach]

In the base rules, both beagle and ECM are sort of space wasters. In the expanded rules, ECM still isn't as powerful as it is here. Double blind ecm rules don't deny friendlies the ability of iff. And they don't interfere with spotting sensors unless you are in the operating radius of the ECM, which the rules you reference still say is 6 hexes. They do interfere with scanning sensors, though.

Most of the abilities beagle should have in the same advanced rules as ECM were instead included as modules.

Edited by DocBach, 02 February 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[Kousagi]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

In the base rules, both beagle and ECM are sort of space wasters. In the expanded rules, ECM still isn't as powerful as it is here. Double blind ecm rules don't deny friendlies the ability of iff. And they don't interfere with spotting sensors unless you are in the operating radius of the ECM, which the rules you reference still say is 6 hexes. They do interfere with scanning sensors, though.

Most of the abilities beagle should have in the same advanced rules as ECM were instead included as modules.

C3 is the IFF system...so yes ECM does deny IFF, but due to TT being on well, a Table, its kinda hard to Not see your own models... they do kill sensors outside of 6 hex's... reread it again, I'll even give ya a clue which opens a good argument, that might be one they should put in... keyword is "equipped".

[DocBach]

C3 isn't an IFF, and we don't have C3 in this game.

[Kousagi]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

C3 isn't an IFF, and we don't have C3 in this game.

Well, thinking about it, then looking, C3 is not the main IFF, it is one of them though, but IFF are transmitters, so they do get jammed. Though TT is TT, they don't have rules for it, since you, the player knows which mechs are yours and where they are at all times with your god view. But yes we do have C3 in MWO, Every mech has it for free. Its call target sharing, something that can't be done without C3.

Edited by Kousagi, 02 February 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[DocBach]

"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can
share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory
performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized
equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct
battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least
receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."
-TechManual, page 39

[Kousagi]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can
share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory
performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized
equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct
battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least
receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."
-TechManual, page 39

I like that vague statement of basic sensory data. Key feature of C3 is target data sharing, just saying....by what you are saying, Why would they have a whole new system to share target data, if they already can? Though, even if what you say is correct, how would that data be transferred?...Ya, so ECM would still jam it, at least if it comes from friendlys, as even in MWO you can get your own targeting data when jammed.

edit in: though something funny in your own quote. "C3 system takes this to new heights with direct
battlefield applications", kinda implys that the basic sensors that are shared do not have battlefield applications...

Edited by Kousagi, 02 February 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[BerryChunks]

wait til people actually get smart using shutdown mechs to create traps.

[DocBach]

Vague? Almost all descriptions of the workings of Battletech are pretty vague, because the guys making it were gamer dorks, not subject matter experts. It says target sharing is available, without ECM. You can argue the amount that is shared by the word "basic," but it says units do not need C3 to share data, just like when 'Mechs use the spotting for indirect fire rule - they aren't calling in a grid fire mission, they are transmitting target data to the LRM platform through target sharing.

The way C3 works in the board game is you can use a target closer to an enemy for targeting reference. Right now, we can only share data from one target at a time, if it is selected by R. C3 would work more like this:

Say you are behind a hill from the rest of your team and your radar can pick up five enemies. Your team mates currently can only see only the enemy you have targeted on their radar. A C3 computer would shareall the enemies, regardless if you target them or not, to friendly minimap radar. If your friends radar can see it, your radar can see it, without them needing to lock on to it.

[Kousagi]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Vague? Almost all descriptions of the workings of Battletech are pretty vague, because the guys making it were gamer dorks, not subject matter experts. It says target sharing is available, without ECM. You can argue the amount that is shared by the word "basic," but it says units do not need C3 to share data, just like when 'Mechs use the spotting for indirect fire rule - they aren't calling in a grid fire mission, they are transmitting target data to the LRM platform through target sharing.

The way C3 works in the board game is you can use a target closer to an enemy for targeting reference. Right now, we can only share data from one target at a time, if it is selected by R. C3 would work more like this:

Say you are behind a hill from the rest of your team and your radar can pick up five enemies. Your team mates currently can only see only the enemy you have targeted on their radar. A C3 computer would shareall the enemies, regardless if you target them or not, to friendly minimap radar. If your friends radar can see it, your radar can see it, without them needing to lock on to it.

Moot argument anyhow, so I'm just going to end it... As we both know theres only 1 way for Target data and IFF to be shared, no matter what system that does it. Which would make it jam-able.

[DocBach]

its the future, maybe they share basic information over the same kind of lasers they get enemy loadout and damage information with, like tag?

Edited by DocBach, 02 February 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

mwhighlander, on 02 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

SRMs DO HAVE HOMING CAPABILITIES! Just they need a narc/tag to do so.

Per TT descriptions, SRMs always have homing capabilities unless they are Dead-fire SRMs (short lived Draconis experimental 'tech that predated the development of MRMs by a few years).

Narc just improves the SRM homing abilities, as does an Artemis FCS. TAG only affects Semi-Guided LRMs; there is no Semi-Guided variant of SRM munitions so far as I am aware.

Quote

The Narc missile beacon is a heavily modified missile launcher that fires special missiles, called pods, made up of powerful homing beacons mounted behind a magnetic head. If the missile hits its target, he pod broadcasts a homing signal for any friendly missile systems equipped to receive Narc transmissions. Like the Artemis IV system, Narc pods potentially increase the number of missiles that hit a target. The Narc system is superior to the Artemis in that the targe lock cannot be broken once established, because the beacon is attached to the target and cannot be destroyed.

Players may fire 1 Narc pod per launcher per turn. If the attack hits, the pod attaches to the target unit. In all the following combat phases, any unit atacking with Narc-equipped missiles adds +2 to the result of the roll on the Missile Hits Table. This modifier remains in effect for the target BattleMech for the duration of the battle. Multiple Narc pods attached to a target have no additional effect. Other Narc beacons in the target hex do not confuse Narc-guided missiles.

The Narc system can be used to aid both standard SRM and LRM missile attacks.

Master Rules, p.145

Quote

Only Inner Sphere units can use Semiguided LRMs. Semiguided LRMs use recent advances in target designation to home in on a target successfully designated by a TAG system just as if it were an on-board Arrow IV Homing Missile attack; see p. 77. Normal modifiers for target movement do not apply to LRMs fired against such a target. For indirect LRM attacks, normal penalties for indirect fire and spotter movement do not apply. All other standard modifiers apply as usual, including penalties for the attacker's movement and for intervening terrain (if applicable).

Master Rules, p.142

[DocBach]

BerryChunks, on 02 February 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

wait til people actually get smart using shutdown mechs to create traps.

Actually, that's one of those things ECM is suppose to allow. Beagle can find shut down, hidden 'Mechs - ECM hides them for ambushes. Special case scenarios are generally what ECM was suppose to be used for by the rule sets, not to block everything and anything. Descriptive text describes how something works, like the Sarna wiki that says how ECM interferes with everything, but there's even a rule for descriptive text:


"FICTION VS. RULES
It is important to remember that regardless of the critical role
fi ction plays in immersing players in the Classic BattleTech universe,
such fiction should never be construed as rules. As with Total
Warfare, to eliminate confusion about which sections are fi ction and
which are rules, the fi ction sections have a unique look, compared
to the uniform presentation of the various rules sections."

TechManual, Pg 8

[LaserAngel]

DocBach, on 02 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Actually, that's one of those things ECM is suppose to allow. Beagle can find shut down, hidden 'Mechs - ECM hides them for ambushes. Special case scenarios are generally what ECM was suppose to be used for by the rule sets, not to block everything and anything. Descriptive text describes how something works, like the Sarna wiki that says how ECM interferes with everything, but there's even a rule for descriptive text:


"FICTION VS. RULES
It is important to remember that regardless of the critical role
fi ction plays in immersing players in the Classic BattleTech universe,
such fiction should never be construed as rules. As with Total
Warfare, to eliminate confusion about which sections are fi ction and
which are rules, the fi ction sections have a unique look, compared
to the uniform presentation of the various rules sections."

TechManual, Pg 8

In a pretty crummy match on Forest Colony, my BAP detected a powered down SRM cat just outside of the cave. I didn't notice it at first and then the rest of his team powered up and ran out of the cave. I've only had to hunt mechs twice so far using BAP.

[WhyteRazor]

Wheeew,... lot's of stuff here. But now for the flipside. Dose using BAP increase my exposure to enemy targeting? If so, how bad is it?

[WANTED]

I run BAP and Advanced Sensor Range since they stack and even with ECM many times other mechs lag behind or go their own ways from the ECM shield and I can pick them up. I still think it has helped my team even if the ECM overrides it usually.

[Taron]

On short: With Beagle you might be able to aim at mechs, you can't without at a given range.

[Kaspirikay]

Actively probes for beagles, man