379 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

MaddMaxx, on 01 February 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

I don't always drop Solo, but when I do, I prefer to do it by myself.

P.S. And whenever I do Pug, I am always "All out of Bubblegum" LOL

Orrrr one could say.........


"I don't always PUG, but when I do, I understand my team might suck and I get my azz handed to me"

and PS: Half the "Pre-Mades" pug stomping are just Pugs who can actually follow simple directions like waypoints posted to the map, and that hey.. sticking together and focusing fire is a GOOD thing. Maps and teams are too small for intricate tactics. 90% of winning is common sense and focus fire. I pug at least half my matches, and one of two things hapeen, regardless of facing a premade or other puglies..... either the group listens and sticks together and even if we don't win, put up one hell of a fight, OR people disregard any suggestions, tell you "cool story bro" and run off to die alone like id-iots.

[SteelRat]

I understand the issue with new players and maybe something they could do, since they have the Cadet c-bill bonus implemented, is have those Cadets dropping with Cadets to start. But at some point, these players have to move into the real game and pre-mades are part of that.

Some of the problem is most new players ignore any help given to them but 1 of the quickest ways to learn is to listen to the more experienced players. This is also more difficult when its very hard to communicate with those people you just dropped with in the game.

Basically, I don't think its as easy as just remove 4 man groups. I PUG quite alot and have rolled over teams on occasion with a bunch of newbs. 2 or 3 experienced, randomly dropping together can be just as dangerous to new players because we recognize whats happening on the battlefield and will naturally work together.

Heres hoping Phase 3 makes this all a little easier on the newbs.





PS. NO RESPAWNS!

[Gammanoob]

Novawrecker, on 01 February 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

So, droping with a group of people that help you get accsutomed to communicating, honing habits such as quickly adapting to a situation, focusing fire, growing used to tactics, keeping together, and overall team help and organization is a bad thing?

I SOOO want the number of your dealer cause he's selling you some seriously good shait.

Dropping with a group against a bunch of usually unorganized players is in fact bad practice.

Unless of course you consider playing with an advantage challenging?

Granted, if you are trying to teach a day 1 player how to use his mech, basics of a battle, basics of mech piloting or similar skill set then sure, dropping in a 4-man against pubbers is a great way to practice in a "live fire" situation.

If you want to work on any of the skills you mentioned in a serious manner, you go play in 8 vs 8 matches or even better attempt to synch drop so that you end up playing against another organized clan.

Edited by Gammanoob, 01 February 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

it really could be worse back in mw3 when ppl got pwnd we play this to rub it in:

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gammanoob, on 01 February 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Dropping with a group against a bunch of usually unorganized players is in fact bad practice.

Unless of course you consider playing with an advantage challenging?

Granted, if you are trying to teach a day 1 player how to use his mech, basics of a battle, basics of mech piloting or similar skill set then sure, dropping in a 4-man against pubbers is a great way to practice in a "live fire" situation.

If you want to work on any of the skills you mentioned in a serious manner, you go play in 8 vs 8 matches or even better attempt to synch drop so that you end up playing against another organized clan.

Here's a problem that so many solo droppers have literally zero clue about..8 man drops. They are probably one of the worst ways to drop with a team to try and practice anything. There's no class matching in 8 mans, there's only 8 vs 8 and that's the entirety of the matching. Many of the folks doing the 8 mans aren't trying to actually play, they are just abusing the current metagame and ignoring anything else, so you'll see 8 Atlases or Ravens or a mix of those 2 in a 5/3 or 6/2 ratio, and that's it. We drop a mixed combined arms group, so they are a cakewalk for us, especially since we sport TAG and LRMs and they tend to either stand at their base and wait OR rush our base, take your pick, THAT is the entirety of their tactical depth.

It's boring, it's useless for training after the 3rd time you've done it, and the next 20 drops become a painful experience because there is NO change. Occasionally we get another unit that's actually using combined arms and THEN..then we get to have some fun and actually do some training and practice, but those are far too damn rare to count on, so..we don't do a lot of 8 mans. We just drop in small units so we can teach our new recruits or work on our own skills, grind xp or grind cbills. I'm just hunting bugs more then anything else lately when I drop solo, since I've not had much luck with finding decent recruits because..well..most of the players with any skills are already in a unit OR don't want to join one, and the rest of the players..well..I usually give them the website for teams I don't like

[Gammanoob]

Well, what you do is you find another clan who is also willing to play "combined arms" and seriously then you set a date and time to look drop for a couple of matches.

A certain mechwarrior(who shall remain nameless) managed to by simply jumping around TS to get us a good number of matches almost in a row practice against two other clans who we had set a "date" with.

Of course there are a lot of bad 8 vs 8 matches, but it still is very different when you have 8 people against you at least working together as opposed to a random 4-man drop where it is mostly a case of hunting down the enemy team one by one.

Edited by Gammanoob, 01 February 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Sync dropping, yes, we've tried that, but sadly, when we're doing 8 mans seems to be prime time for them, we never have long wait times and get maybe 1 Failed To Find a night..if we get that many, and due to that the syncs fail 90% of the time. It's just not worth it usually, so we only do 8 mans a few nights a week. Besides, there's little point in practicing 8 man drops when we know that 12 man drops are on the way and that's how the actual CW combats will be fought. Why spend time now learning bad habits and having to deal with the Atlas/Raven bs? We just drop in 2 to 4 man units and teach our new guys, practice our own skills and look for potential recruits. We aren't out to pugstomp or anything like that, most of us have a less then 2:1 KDR because we're just having fun and mucking about. I actually raised my KDR while grinding xp for my Spiders, which makes me laugh every time I think about it, cause we all know how useless the Spider is

I personally drop solo far more then I drop in a premade, my WLR and KDR are both positive and I know every time my team gets rolled that it's not a premade doing it, it's MY side doing it to themselves, lack of communication, lack of skills, or just plain bad luck(getting headshotted by a gausscat who wasn't even firing AT me bad luck).

[silentD11]

Gammanoob, on 01 February 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Well, what you do is you find another clan who is also willing to play "combined arms" and seriously then you drop until you find each other..

This still lands you with multiple games that are about as fun, win or lose, as a root canal. The lack of variety and monotony will cause most people to quit 8 man drops and avoid them like the plague. Want to know how to get people to play a different game for the night? Inform them you are going to do 8 players and watch them run for the hills. Nobody wants to sit through that, well masochists do. And that's leaving out that even if people do find that fun, some of them might want to grind mechs, play joke builds, or do whatever that night.

There's also the issue that there aren't enough 8 man teams to actually implement a match making system. And many of the four man premades you see out there aren't actual clans, but a selection of randoms who wandered into whatever TS3 server for the night and wanted to get some games. There isn't much difference from a pug here other than you can call someone a sea urchin molester over voice rather than through chat.

[Kristov Kerensky]

silentD11, on 01 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

This still lands you with multiple games that are about as fun, win or lose, as a root canal. The lack of variety and monotony will cause most people to quit 8 man drops and avoid them like the plague. Want to know how to get people to play a different game for the night? Inform them you are going to do 8 players and watch them run for the hills. Nobody wants to sit through that, well masochists do. And that's leaving out that even if people do find that fun, some of them might want to grind mechs, play joke builds, or do whatever that night.

There's also the issue that there aren't enough 8 man teams to actually implement a match making system. And many of the four man premades you see out there aren't actual clans, but a selection of randoms who wandered into whatever TS3 server for the night and wanted to get some games. There isn't much difference from a pug here other than you can call someone a sea urchin molester over voice rather than through chat.

Can I use that, cause that is freaking awesome!

[Bishop Steiner]

silentD11, on 01 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

This still lands you with multiple games that are about as fun, win or lose, as a root canal. The lack of variety and monotony will cause most people to quit 8 man drops and avoid them like the plague. Want to know how to get people to play a different game for the night? Inform them you are going to do 8 players and watch them run for the hills. Nobody wants to sit through that, well masochists do. And that's leaving out that even if people do find that fun, some of them might want to grind mechs, play joke builds, or do whatever that night.

There's also the issue that there aren't enough 8 man teams to actually implement a match making system. And many of the four man premades you see out there aren't actual clans, but a selection of randoms who wandered into whatever TS3 server for the night and wanted to get some games. There isn't much difference from a pug here other than you can call someone a sea urchin molester over voice rather than through chat.

Not too mention, that a lot of the 8 man queue are "pro-gamer" min/maxxing Clans. Easy enough to beat when you are with your own Clan and have chemistry to compliment your tactics. Unfortuantely, running pell mell around TS doesn't net you any chemistry.

Now, the PUGnation (of which I spend about half my time) can say "then why do you tell us to jsut grab random people?!?!?!"

Simple.

Because in 4man/PUG, you only occasionally face a cohesive group, especially larger than 4 (though I would be first to admit some Clans sync drop 2 4mans.. and make all kinds of good excuses for it.... but they still know that chances are good they will be pugrolling.), hence chemistry and tactics are far less important. Seriously, to win in the Pug queue simply requires getting all the kittens to herd the same direction then actual focus fire.

8 man tends to be a little more competitive than that. You can get by ok with 1-2 randoms, if they are quality pilots.... but you don't throw 8 random pilots together with any expectation in hell of winning much vs an actual TEAM.

[krash27]

Applecrow, on 31 January 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

More than ever we need a trial only queue.

It's a team-based game, its pointless to call for nerfs to using teamwork.

They took away large groups, and people still complain about premades. They could completely remove grouping, and people will still complain about focus fire, or hax-made groups.

Yes and they brought 8 mans back and guess what? ITs to difficult for alot of "organized teams" so they are back to pug stomping.

/shrug One could use the same logic on the "premades" that they use on everyone else. THey say its to hard to get 8 people. Well take your own advice and log into TS to fill up your 8 man group.

My opinion, ya getting stomped by gets annoying, but I allways try to smile and crack a joke after getting roflstomped and I allways say GG to the other team when done. After all, raging in chat when you get killed is kinda pointless, solves nothing and just makes ya madder when the other team flames you.

[krash27]

Death Mallet, on 01 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Don't eliminate the 4 mans.

Just lump them in with the 8 mans and keep a 'solo' queue, and a 'group' queue.

Oh man, I'd love to hear what the premade four mans had to say if this were implemented.
They would QQ that 4 mans shouldn't drop with 8 mans. Oddly similar to what alot of pugs are saying about 4 mans droping with pugs.

Edited by krash27, 01 February 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[fil5000]

krash27, on 01 February 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Oh man, I'd love to hear what the premade four mans had to say if this were implemented.
They would QQ that 4 mans shouldn't drop with 8 mans. Oddly similar to what alot of pugs are saying about 4 mans droping with pugs.

This would be fine if we could drop with between 5-7 people. I would happily drop with 4+4 vs 8, 5+3 vs 8, 6+2 vs 8, 7+1 vs 8. It is unfortunate that I am required to only have 0-3 or 7 friends if I want to play.

[Kristov Kerensky]

krash27, on 01 February 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Oh man, I'd love to hear what the premade four mans had to say if this were implemented.
They would QQ that 4 mans shouldn't drop with 8 mans. Oddly similar to what alot of pugs are saying about 4 mans droping with pugs.

Ever done the 8 mans? Too hard? No, too boring, no real competition in most drops due to the metagaming approach for WLR instead of KDR and exploitive based tactics. It's just boring, pub play isn't like that, it's still fluid and not boring. May get steamrolled, may do the steamrolling, might come down to an epic 1v3 for the win, you never know and it's fun. 8v8, unless we get a mixed arms drop to face, we roll em, they ain't learned that skill overcomes cheap and refuse to acknowledge it because there's still some unskilled out there who believe the propaganda..poor suckers.

Drop 4s in the 8 man, that would make it fun again, odds of getting an actual fight would increase exponentially, allowing 2s and 4s into the 8 man que, wonderful idea actually.

[Bishop Steiner]

krash27, on 01 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Yes and they brought 8 mans back and guess what? ITs to difficult for alot of "organized teams" so they are back to pug stomping.

/shrug One could use the same logic on the "premades" that they use on everyone else. THey say its to hard to get 8 people. Well take your own advice and log into TS to fill up your 8 man group.

My opinion, ya getting stomped by gets annoying, but I allways try to smile and crack a joke after getting roflstomped and I allways say GG to the other team when done. After all, raging in chat when you get killed is kinda pointless, solves nothing and just makes ya madder when the other team flames you.

see the answer above yours for why that DOESN'T work bro. Generally I recommend ya try something before you recommend it. I PUG, I 4 man and I 8 man, and guess which one you CAN'T do P(ick) U(p) G(roups) with any realistic chance of success? (Though with a decent Group cohesion, 8 man ain't difficult, just not a lot of room to malf up)

Why? Cuz 8 man generally is manned by cohesive groups with chemistry and an understanding of tactics. PUG and 4 man that is much less an issue. Blob move and focus fire will win 90% of PUG/4Man matches.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 February 2013 - 04:05 PM.

[CrashieJ]

it's only OP if you don't have it or know how to use it.

[silentD11]

krash27, on 01 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Yes and they brought 8 mans back and guess what? ITs to difficult for alot of "organized teams" so they are back to pug stomping.

/shrug One could use the same logic on the "premades" that they use on everyone else. THey say its to hard to get 8 people. Well take your own advice and log into TS to fill up your 8 man group.

My opinion, ya getting stomped by gets annoying, but I allways try to smile and crack a joke after getting roflstomped and I allways say GG to the other team when done. After all, raging in chat when you get killed is kinda pointless, solves nothing and just makes ya madder when the other team flames you.

It's not about difficulty and it's not about lack of people. It's about the lack of restrictions on 8 mans creating a meta that people don't enjoy playing so they avoid it. I see single people in channels, two man groups, three man groups, and four man groups nightly. People would rather drop alone or in a pair than put up with the 8 man meta game. That should tell you how screwed up it is in it's current form.

Quote

Can I use that, cause that is freaking awesome!

Feel free to.

[Inviticus]

Premades pretty much ruin the game for the casual and new player crowd. I often don't play more than 4 or 5 games at a time and I don't like to get on some voip channel just to leave after a few games. I would much rather be able to drop in, have a few fun and fair games without the constant steam rolling. It's a small wonder the playerbase is not growing like it should.

I for one really want a solo only queue or at least fair matchups. Otherwise, I will end up taking my money elsewhere.

I like the idea of 4mans filling out the 8man queue first. at least then they would know how the rest of us feel.

Edited by Inviticus, 01 February 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Yeah I play 4 mans mostly and its true, they are ruining pug experience, new player experience and should be placed seperately.

[MWHawke]

You know, instead of complaining about how PUG drops are so bad, why don't you take charge of the drop and coordinate?