95 replies to this topic

[Lonestar1771]

Amarius, on 01 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yeah, but it does show that people don't care and don't read suggestions.
Why would the devs care then ? How would they even see it, buried under two dozen of the same rants and ten dozen of useless pointless requirements ?

Again, there is nothing wrong with having multiples. Your suggestion isn't even the same as DocBach's. They are similar but not the same. Also, your explanation and formatting of your suggestion is convoluted and confusing, where Doc's is succinct and much less confusing. I mean no offense towards you, but people tend to spend less time reading something if you have to provide instructions on how to understand your idea.

[DocBach]

Tennex, on 01 February 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

cool suggestion. only problem i can see with it is that opponents have no way of knowing what kind of ECM you are carrying

Sort of the strength of the system - you don't know if I have a capture module, or a 360 targeter, or a module that prevents me from being seen on the mini map.

Because they said modules are taking place of skills in other MMO's, I wish they'd expand modules to be more specific to individual weapons and equipment. Would love to see modules like "PPC Pugilist" which removes the minimum range from PPC's, or "Red Line Lasers" which shorten the recharge time of lasers (but you have to deal with the heat!).

[Lonestar1771]

Thorstine, on 01 February 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Because this is not a turn based game. Even though things have been refined over 20 years does not mean that it is applicable to a real time game. Look at how heat management plays such a big role or mech xp. Really the biggest problem is that no one knows how things are going to be balanced and for everyone to post "XXX" is broken is ignorant because they don't know what the whole picture looks like. I do agree that some things seem to be a bit unbalanced for now being Beta an all but what does everyone expect.

If they can convert weapons and armor values, XP, and heat management from a turn based game into a real time game, I don't see how it would be difficult to do so with ECM and it's counters in a way that makes sense and is balanced.

Edited by Lonestar1771, 01 February 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Orzorn]

I'm sorry Doc, but I don't like some of that. Adding functionality to items is fine, but the power of some of those modules would lead back to the exact same situation we're at now, it would just longer and require a bit more effort, but once people had those modules, it'd be the same issues of missile countering and SSRM exclusivity. Strip the "no lock" module and that would be great. Double lock time is better than no lock at all.

I just think its a slippery slope adding abilities that powerful through something you have to grind out. The modules we have so far can be strong (360 targetting, for instance, although BAP really needs that added to it as well), they aren't so powerful that they would dominate the metagame. A module that stops all weapon locks would be huge (and we can already see what it would do to the game, as ECM is doing right now).

As I said, I'm fine with the more reasonable modules, but something as powerful as countering an entire weapon system would just be too big. If you think ECM is a required item on mechs able to carry it right now, that module would be a required item all the same, and then we'd be right back where we are now with exclusive SSRM using Ravens and Commandos.

Modules should add power, but the question is how much? I think, in this case, that would be too much.

[DocBach]

No lock modules is at the end of a tree which would cost around 24,000,000 c-bills and 45,000 GXP to unlock. It'd be very high end, and it would only affect a 'Mech inside the bubble of ECM, and is in line with the sensor spotting double blind rules.

[Orzorn]

DocBach, on 01 February 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

would only affect a 'Mech inside the bubble of ECM

Oh, sorry, I didn't notice it was just inside the bubble. That way, it would only effectively counter SSRMs.

Regardless, I'm not sure I like that even. Countering entire weapon systems just gets me in a bad way.

The ONLY way I'd be fine with that is if they removed the stupid fact that ECM counters TAG in its bubble. That way, if you had TAG, your SSRMs could still be locked and fired even while within the 180 meter bubble w/ the module.

[Thorstine]

Lonestar1771, on 01 February 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

If they can convert weapons and armor values, XP, and heat management from a turn based game into a real time game, I don't see how it would be difficult to do so with ECM and it's counters in a way that makes sense and is balanced.

Thats just it. We can say for now that it's not balanced. What about in another few months when more things like the sensor modules and PPC changes hit as well. If ECM does not change but other counters came out, could we say that ECM is unbalanced then? (damn, where did I put that crystal ball....)

[DocBach]

Thorstine, on 01 February 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Thats just it. We can say for now that it's not balanced. What about in another few months when more things like the sensor modules and PPC changes hit as well. If ECM does not change but other counters came out, could we say that ECM is unbalanced then? (damn, where did I put that crystal ball....)

But this is the crystal ball question -- are those counters going to be included as modules? If they are, then no, they do not balance ECM because they not only have a c-bill cost, but a GXP cost, which is only earnable by much longer play time or real money.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Best ECM balance post yet, and from someone that actually understands the lore without making crap up.

DocBach, I will gladly have your babies.

[Thorstine]

DocBach, on 01 February 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

But this is the crystal ball question -- are those counters going to be included as modules? If they are, then no, they do not balance ECM because they not only have a c-bill cost, but a GXP cost, which is only earnable by much longer play time or real money.

I think I would be ok with a mix of items that counter ECM. Some modules, some equipment. Has anyone suggested BAP increasing the targetable range for mechs in and ECM bubble similarly to what the modules will be doing? Besides, what else are you going to be spending GXP on? PGI has to have something people can grind on to keep the game going.

[DocBach]

Thorstine, on 01 February 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think I would be ok with a mix of items that counter ECM. Some modules, some equipment. Has anyone suggested BAP increasing the targetable range for mechs in and ECM bubble similarly to what the modules will be doing? Besides, what else are you going to be spending GXP on? PGI has to have something people can grind on to keep the game going.

Yes - I've suggested Beagle Active Probe get the added functions it was suppose to have pretty much until my face turned blue, but instead they were included in the game as modules. Expanding ECM into modules brings up different levels of functionality, and gives you something to spend GXP on -- and above all else restores that little bit of game balance that has been so noticeably absent since ECM was introduced two months ago.

[mike29tw]

Great suggestion overall. My only gripe is, there are only 5 variants that can mount ECM. Dedicate so many modules to one equipment doesn't seem right. I guess PGI will have to also roll out other modules that enhance different weapon systems to complement, otherwise the name of the game is still going to be ECMwarrior Online.

[DocBach]

mike29tw, on 01 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Great suggestion overall. My only gripe is, there are only 5 variants that can mount ECM. Dedicate so many modules to one equipment doesn't seem right. I guess PGI will have to also roll out other modules that enhance different weapon systems to complement, otherwise the name of the game is still going to be ECMwarrior Online.

Yeah, they really do need more modules for specific weapons and equipment.

[DocBach]

IronEagle, on 01 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

ECM is the counter to ECM (you can read that in the description .. press 'J' to counter).
Give all mechs ECM like AMS.

So all the games can be like what 8 mans look like? The solution to fixing ECM isn't more ECM.

Edited by DocBach, 01 February 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[mike29tw]

DocBach, on 01 February 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

So all the games can be like what 8 mans look like? The solution to fixing ECM isn't more ECM.

Actually I consider ECM to be "fixed" when 8-men premade with all ECMs are actually gimping themselve as opposed to having a team with 2-3 ECMs

*Edit - double quote.

Edited by mike29tw, 01 February 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[DocBach]

Your solution is to use a broken mechanic that's ruining the game for many players (every poll put out has shown more players dislike the functions ECM has brought to the game), and completely out balance. I'd rather try to vocalize and provide constructive ideas on how to fix it, before all we have left are people playing ECM 'Mechs.

[Lonestar1771]

IronEagle, on 01 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Get one of the 4 ECM variants. Press 'J' and you are done.
No need for modules or tag or heavy PPCs or expensive hero mechs.
This game is not pay to win. They gave you the ECM for free ...use it.

What does any of this have to do with P2W? Not to mention by doing what you are saying it forces people to play something to be competitive. That is exactly how you should NOT make a game.

Edited by Lonestar1771, 01 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[DocBach]

If the only other counters to ECM beyond more ECM are modules which cost real time or real money, ECM and the balance could be seen as a pay to win mechanic.

So the fix to ECM is buy an ECM 'Mech and use it. People have been telling me that ECM is wonderful because of the diversity it's brought to the game. This seems to be the polar opposite of diversity.

Edited by DocBach, 01 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Greycrow]

Yet another well reasoned argument that tries to provide the devs with reasonable actions.

Here's hoping the devs at least look at this and take it into consideration.

[Korlain Draco]

I agree that you cannot always quote table top. But this is not something that is a variable and is effected by non-turned based play. The use of basic equipment rules for ECM and Beagle make sense. Using modules for more advanced features can help balance out and provide more diverse configurations.

All in all I think these post has merit and make some good suggestions.