55 replies to this topic

[Azantia]

Hmmm....

http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/
^ What PGI thinks ECM is......

Sounds a lot like a null signature system to me...

Null Signature System :
First appearing on the SLDF's EXT-4D Exterminator and the later Spector, while the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield masked their visual presence, the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions. While the system is engaged, the 'Mech is more difficult to track at anything other than short range, with the Beagle Active Probe and its unbranded Clan equivalent unable to locate a hidden unit with its null signature system engaged. Only the modern and experimental Bloodhound Active Probe can penetrate the null signature masking.
Like many pieces of advanced technology, the Null Signature System and the 'Mechs that carried it became LosTech during the malestrom of the early Succession Wars. Outside of the Word of Blake, all modern examples of the Null Signature System in the Inner Sphere are either experimental prototypes such as that carried by the Werewolf or exceedingly rare surviving examples from the original Star League, with the Capellan Confederation the Successor State closest to recreating the system. While not yet able to produce a bolt for bolt, circuit for circuit replication, with typical Capellan ingenuity House Liao has developed a stop-gap solution suitable for mass-production, the so-called Stealth Armor. Integrating the heat baffles and required components directly into specially designed armor plating, when linked with a Guardian ECM Suite Stealth Armor replicates its benefits (and disadvantages).
While the Clans retained the peak of the Terran Hegemony's military technology, the tenets of Clan honor find such stealth systems dishonorable and ceased research and production of the Null Signature System.

The null signature system features heat baffles that mask the 'Mech's heat sinks and reduce its infrared signature. However, the baffles restrict the normal venting of heat, meaning the 'Mech generates an additional 10 points of heat while the system is active. The null signature system also incorporates a phased-array sensor system and a sheathed directional communication beacon. Therefore, a 'Mech with this system may not mount any special Targeting and Tracking Systems (including Targeting Computers, C3 equipment, and C3i equipment) or a Satellite Uplink system.
The null signature system does not weigh a significant amount, but does take up one critical slot in each of the BattleMech'***** locations except for the head, for a total of seven critical slots. A critical hit to any of these slots will disable the entire system.

Guardian ECM Suite

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]


maybe? I dont know.....just a thought

edit : I love you sarna.net and I understand that not ALL of what they propose is like the null signature system...just most of it.

@PGI : What is your view on how Null Signature System should work when it comes along?

Edited by Azantia, 28 November 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Yeah apparently... ECM has absolutely nothing to do with masking sensor signatures in tabletop. And even in the other mechwarrior games, the most it ever reduced sensor detection range by was 20%, and it cancelled out with BAP (which added 20% sensor range). Its completely ridiculous to have it reduce sensor range by 75% AND cancel out BAP.

[Solis Obscuri]

Azantia, on 28 November 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Hmmm....

http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/
^ What PGI thinks ECM is......

Sounds a lot like a null signature system to me...

Null Signature System :
First appearing on the SLDF's EXT-4D Exterminator and the later Spector, while the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield masked their visual presence, the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions. While the system is engaged, the 'Mech is more difficult to track at anything other than short range, with the Beagle Active Probe and its unbranded Clan equivalent unable to locate a hidden unit with its null signature system engaged. Only the modern and experimental Bloodhound Active Probe can penetrate the null signature masking.
Like many pieces of advanced technology, the Null Signature System and the 'Mechs that carried it became LosTech during the malestrom of the early Succession Wars. Outside of the Word of Blake, all modern examples of the Null Signature System in the Inner Sphere are either experimental prototypes such as that carried by the Werewolf or exceedingly rare surviving examples from the original Star League, with the Capellan Confederation the Successor State closest to recreating the system. While not yet able to produce a bolt for bolt, circuit for circuit replication, with typical Capellan ingenuity House Liao has developed a stop-gap solution suitable for mass-production, the so-called Stealth Armor. Integrating the heat baffles and required components directly into specially designed armor plating, when linked with a Guardian ECM Suite Stealth Armor replicates its benefits (and disadvantages).
While the Clans retained the peak of the Terran Hegemony's military technology, the tenets of Clan honor find such stealth systems dishonorable and ceased research and production of the Null Signature System.

The null signature system features heat baffles that mask the 'Mech's heat sinks and reduce its infrared signature. However, the baffles restrict the normal venting of heat, meaning the 'Mech generates an additional 10 points of heat while the system is active. The null signature system also incorporates a phased-array sensor system and a sheathed directional communication beacon. Therefore, a 'Mech with this system may not mount any special Targeting and Tracking Systems (including Targeting Computers, C3 equipment, and C3i equipment) or a Satellite Uplink system.
The null signature system does not weigh a significant amount, but does take up one critical slot in each of the BattleMech'***** locations except for the head, for a total of seven critical slots. A critical hit to any of these slots will disable the entire system.

Guardian ECM Suite

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]


maybe? I dont know.....just a thought

edit : I love you sarna.net and I understand that not ALL of what they propose is like the null signature system...just most of it.

Apparently they also confused TAG with a BAP...

[focuspark]

ECM (electronic counter measure) is designed to mess with electrical systems to the point where they become useless. It should be a targeted weapon that basically takes the target out of the fight for moment (or so long as you keep a solid bead on them).

What they're describing the Guardian ECM Suite to be is a cloaking device.

[Alymbic]

They seem to be starting at the highest extreme and will be nerfing it down as its needed. Personally I'm content to let it play out.

[CobraFive]

focuspark, on 28 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

ECM (electronic counter measure) is designed to mess with electrical systems to the point where they become useless. It should be a targeted weapon that basically takes the target out of the fight for moment (or so long as you keep a solid bead on them).

What they're describing the Guardian ECM Suite to be is a cloaking device.

You are thinking EMP, not ECM.

In real life, ECM is gear that aircraft use to disrupt lock-on and radar targeting.

Edited by CobraFive, 28 November 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Yeah apparently... ECM has absolutely nothing to do with masking sensor signatures in tabletop.

As I constantly see posted on these forums;

this aint TT

[focuspark]

CobraFive, on 28 November 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

You are thinking EMP, not ECM.

In real life, ECM is gear that aircraft use to disrupt lock-on and radar targeting.

Actually up until now (just did a search) I'd only been familiar with "offensive ECM" or "jamming". Seems we're both right as ECM comes in two flavors: defensive (electronic camouflage) and offensive (jamming).

[SpiralRazor]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 28 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

As I constantly see posted on these forums;

this aint TT

Really? Then why is it 6 hexes? why does it weight the same as in TT?

If youre going to deviate might as well go all the way.


Guardian ECM , weight 3 tons, 3 crits-

Passive mode- requires Line of Sight., range 1000 meters, enemy mechs within range have there overall scanning range reduced by 20% and all weapon locks take 50% as long.

Active mode, Range 500 meters, Enemy mechs within 500 meters lose the bonuses from TAG, NARC, Artemis, BAP, and all sensor modules, scanning range of enemy mechs within 500 meters reduced by 30%, weapon locks take 75% longer


BAP, 3 crits, 3 tons

Passive mode-Requires line of sight, Range 1000 meters, All Friendly mechs within range gain 20% scanning range, acquire weapon locks 50% faster, and acquire detailed targeting data 50% faster.

Active mode- Requires Line of Sight, Range 500 meters , All friendly mechs within 500 meters gain the ability to detect shut down mechs within the LOS of the probing mech, all friendly mechs weapon lock speed increased by 100% and acquire detailed targeting data 100% faster. Mechs under the influence of BAP are able to see the heat levels of enemy mechs that are also within the range of the probing mech.


Put in HUD elements to let someone know theyve been ECMed or Probed, and thats it.

[Hunter Watzas]

It sounded like they did a good job comparing it to the Sarnia description. The tag is effective because it will still give allies target information as long as you are shooting it into the ecm zone (from outside) and it will provide all the "information" to your teammates. This seems like its going to be cool for masking assaults by preventing radar detection within a certain distance, but you can still pull out your thermals with your eyes and see them. I am looking forward to trying this out.

[White Bear 84]

Just a minor comment, but nothing was mentioned in the ECM post about hiding heat signatures.. ..so obviously its not hiding heat signitures, therefore not the null signature system...

[reliquery]

Thank you all for your comments. As aptly explained this is not table top, which is my area of interest and expertise. However in the modern era one must attempt to change with the times and switch to other forms of media in order to maintain a hobby. Since they are using a TT as the basis of everything i do expect more consistency in their attempts to translate TT to the PC. In TT ECM isnt stealth. If the company can capitalize on the built in fan-base they can be more effective with their efforts. I still play but i have several friends that have beta tested games that absolutely despise this game because of the ECM along with other issues.

Than you again

[Tennex]

that uh.. that is the issue here

[Nathan Foxbane]

Nullsig would make them almost invisible to thermal as well. According to the new rules set Nullsig and Chameleon Light Polarization Shield does not work without ECM and take up crit space in their own right.

PGI did what they could. Nebulous concepts that work well for TT do not translate all that easily to a real time sim.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 30 January 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

This is what many of us have been arguing against PGI's implementation against ECM since day F****** One. Its not rocket surgery, PGI claims to stick by TT (somewhat) then say "f*** it, lets just make normal ECM do everything under the sun at no cost whatsoever."

Its not exactly a mystery why PGI f****** up on this one, but refuse to admit this system they have in place makes no sense. MEANWHILE other equipment like BAP and NARC is so utterly useless its a ******* joke.

[Zakie Chan]

Their implementation of ecm is pretty much word for word. Dont forget that the devs gave all mechs c3 computers.

That said in the adaptation to making this a sim/fps, there is a need for change.

[Tie Ma]

i think they've confused counters with game balance

counters are good gameplay once everything is at the same level.

Edited by Tie Ma, 30 January 2013 - 03:54 PM.

[STRONG LIKE BEAR]

White Bear 84, on 28 November 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Just a minor comment, but nothing was mentioned in the ECM post about hiding heat signatures.. ..so obviously its not hiding heat signitures, therefore not the null signature system...

Unfortunately many who whine about ECM confuse the "R" button, with their EYES

[Merky Merc]

I don't think so, Null sig makes ravens invisible. Everyone knows that.

[Orzorn]

Zakie Chan, on 30 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Their implementation of ecm is pretty much word for word. Dont forget that the devs gave all mechs c3 computers.

That said in the adaptation to making this a sim/fps, there is a need for change.

You tell me, what need was there for ECM to do all that it does? To counter TAG when within its range? To counter SSRMs and LRMs?

I thought that was AMS' job, to stop missiles?