149 replies to this topic

[Deamhan]

The major problem that I'm seeing with lights is that they are still stepping toe to toe with all the other weight classes, engaging them in a brawl and winning. I've seen multiple people hit them repeatedly with lasers and yet they run away with their armor still there, down to orange, but still there.

I run a Cat C1 setup as a mini MadCat (MLas x2, LLas x2, and SRM 6 x2). I have gone through three alphas worth of cycling into a raven while they spent half their time with 0 angular velocity to me and watched them duck behind a building with their armor maybe gone. Watching as their CT flashes and my crosshairs flash red. Yet take that same light and leg them or they over heat and one alpha to their front will take them out.

So, while the net code improvement allows them to be hit easier, there still seems to be a reduction to the damage they take and it is related to their speed. However, it isn't their physical movement that is the cause but rather their speed set. What I mean by this is that if you take a light and have them run at full speed into a wall, they aren't moving but they won't take the full damage they would if they were to stop trying to run into that wall and just stand there.

SSRMs are not the problem, them not taking the damage they are suppose to from other, non seeking, weapons is the problem.

If holding that laser on their rear CT did full damage to the rear CT; and
If point impact weapons (ppc, gauss, AC) did their all their damage to the part that was hit (like it should be).

Then suddenly people taking out lights with nothing but SSRMs won't be a problem. Light pilots foolishly running into the enemy group will suddenly find they don't make it out again even if they are an ECM light.

Light pilots will have to do what they should be doing.

Popping out of cover long enough to take a shot at a bigger mech's back side before ducking behind cover again.
Taking shots at mechs whose focus/attention is elsewhere.
Quickly taking caps when needed.
Spotting for team mates with LRMs.

Never should they be able to repeatedly run through the enemy group and survive.
Never shout they be able to step toe to toe with a bigger mech who is focused on them and survive (unless they can stay behind them the whole time).

Then there is the firepower that lights can bring. The biggest factor of dps isn't how many weapons you bring to the field but rather the ability to fire without overheating. Sustainable dps. I spec'ed lights as they fight and some, like the OP build, can actually have the same sustainable dps as heavies and assaults. Sure, their alpha may be lower but the alpha isn't what is important when you consider the higher speed combat that lights are a part of. It's like what I said about cycling above and watching as they duck behind cover with may just their armor gone. To cycle through repeatedly and not overheat, people need to hold back their shot despite their weapon being off CD. This increases the time between shots which decreases the dps of the weapon. So dmg/cycle time is not a good indicator of dps for that weapon.

Well, quite honestly, lights can put out the same sustainable dps despite bringing less weapons to the field and this too is just wrong.

[Trauglodyte]

The biggest issue with the Raven (you've already said almost all of them) and the pre-ECM Jenner (even post JJ fix) is that you have the Commando that has 4 weapon HPs and the Spider that has an average of 2-3 weapon HPs. Then you jump to the Jenner that has 5-6 and the Raven that has 5. The NARC pod and TAG should never have been allowed to be switched out to a normal hard points and its speed should NEVER have been jacked up to what it is when the 2X and 4X are worlds slower. The Jenner, on the other hand, is supposed to be fast but even then, it shouldn't have the number of hard points that it has. I've said it since the beginning: one of the biggest issues this game suffers from is the sheer number of weapons that every mech carries. If we didn't have that, nobody would care.

So, in the end, the 3L stands at the top of the mountain of cheese because it is allowed to abuse mechanics while sporting mass amounts of speed and damage.

[MWHawke]

MangoBogadog, on 03 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

My suggestions boiled down to this:

• BAP can transmit targeting info to friendlies inside ECM bubble, but will not give you a lock.
  
• TAG can target enemy ECM mechs inside bubble and give you a lock, but will not transmit targeting info to allies.
  
• Streaks target the component aimed for when fired, if your not aiming at the enemy mech when you shoot the streaks will target a completely random component and also have far less chance to hit.

These are pretty good suggestions

[Raidyr]

Deamhan, on 03 February 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Well, quite honestly, lights can put out the same sustainable dps despite bringing less weapons to the field and this too is just wrong.

Devs stated early on and quite frequently that lights performing as well as heavier mechs was a purposeful design decision. You should just let go of your fantasy outperforming other players because they chose a small mech than you.

[Syncline]

If people want light mech variety, PGI can start by allowing any light mech to run ECM.

[MWHawke]

Jade Kitsune, on 03 February 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

You know what, I'm going to answer this legit since no one else seems to want to.

Yes these changes will effect gameplay for EVERYONE.

Now let's let that sink in for a moment.

While these changes do effect gameplay across the board, the "Pug" players will see little benifit or really, very little in the way of how this impacts the game, simply because Pug games are not about running what's most effective, or being "SUPER UBER COMPETITIVE!" Now in the Leagues that have sprung up, this would have a HUGE impact due to the way matches play out over all.

The point being made in the "yes a ccd can get 5 kills in pugs but not in RHOD" is really a simple one my friend. Most of what you're seeing on the PUG side of things is a decently skilled pilot who's up against lesser skilled pilots and who's using the chaos of the PUG atmosphere to their advantage. The disorginized nature of PuG matches is what allows builds like this to pull off these amazing streaks. The gameplay environment is HUGELY different in league play, even though we all have access to all the same stuff.

Let me re-emphasize this. The kills the CCD made were against premade players. It was not just against PUGs who were not coordinated. Yes, not all 5 were Light but he killed the Lights from premade teams. They were coordinated teams, not random PUGs.

Yes, competitive play is different from random drops but it does not mean people who play random drops have less skill.

And like I said, I recognize the names of the players. It was not super skilled against lesser skilled. It was pretty even.

[Vassago Rain]

Raidyr, on 03 February 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Devs stated early on and quite frequently that lights performing as well as heavier mechs was a purposeful design decision. You should just let go of your fantasy outperforming other players because they chose a small mech than you.

Then what's the point of taking big mechs if the small mechs will do the same thing, but move much faster?

[Stingz]

Syncline, on 03 February 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

If people want light mech variety, PGI can start by allowing any light mech to run ECM.

Then Jenners will dominate like Closed Beta again. (4 M.Las, x2 Streak-2)

[MWHawke]

Hawkwings, on 03 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

A couple of things:

1. Your prior experience in competitive play in other games means very little in this game. This game is not MW4, and the tactics that worked there are not the same as the ones that work here. I'm a chess grandmaster, Korean-level skill in Starcraft, and roll pubbies in World of Tanks. Does that mean I'm good at this game? No.

How are your comparisons even logical? Mechwarrior games compared to Mechwarrior games and Mechwarrior games compared to chess, starcraft and world of tanks?

Hawkwings, on 03 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

2. 4-mans, even the best ones, can lose in random drops because you have 4 pubbies on your team. If those 4 pubbies are useless, then you're now fighting 4v8 and will likely lose if the enemy is halfway competent. Plus, your opponents are pubbies more likely than not, and even if they're a 4-man group, maybe they have the useless pubbies on their side, and you roll them. So what? Does that mean you're uber? Go to Outreach and look at the threads for all the top competitive groups. Notice they have people talking trash to them, about beating them in 4-mans or even 8-mans. Do you honestly think that if your 4-man group beat Kaos in some random drop, that you're better than they are? Hint: the answer is most likely no.

I agree about the pubbies making a difference in terms of winning GAMES. But in this case, he took on the Lights and beat them, and again I reiterate, they were not randoms.

And note, I am not saying beat in game. Those were kills he made on his Mech against the other Mechs.

Hawkwings, on 03 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

3. Most 8-man groups suck. And they run terrible drops, mostly assaults and heavies. Your experience in normal 8-man drops means very little in terms of competitive play. See again, people posting in corp threads about how uber they are because they beat so-and-so in an 8-man drop. Newsflash: not everyone runs all serious competitive drops in 8-man groups all the time. The other day we were trying to do mech stacking for fun in an 8-man group. We weren't paying attention to the enemy at all, and barely fought them until they were right on top of us. Still rolled them all. This was with non-optimized builds, standing around for 3 minutes making mech hats, and not taking things seriously. If we ran into a good team doing competitive practice then they would have steamrolled us. But we didn't. Heck, some guy was testing a 4xPPC Cicada for fun, and got 8 kills. Obviously a great mech, right? Validated in an 8-man drop right?

Now you are being dumb. These were people playing proper Mechs and in premade groups.

Hawkwings, on 03 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

4. More damage does not mean you're better. The best teams often have very evenly spread damage because everyone is shooting at things all the time, focusing fire, etc. And if you're really skilled and go around headcapping people, you'll do almost no damage at all.

The damage is to show that he killed those Mechs in a fight cause otherwise, there might be people here who will claim that he steal killed.

Writhen, on 03 February 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

No, I actually play on an undefeated team in the RHoD league. I have actual basis, like Window, Protection and many others that have posted here, that there is no diversity in the light class. Sadly your lack of reading comprehension and spouting of nonsense has derailed the thread.

We really care about your competitive history.

Whatever. Feel good channel. Have a good day.

[MWHawke]

RocketDwarf, on 03 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Sorry I got the wrong idea from your posts. Also, the thing you said about broadening my horizons was somewhat unnecessary. One of my favorite builds is a raven 4X with dual PPCs, I think that counts as broad horizons. 3Ls in my experience are really hard to deal when in a light mech with because streaks always do ALL their potential damage and as an added bonus make the target's screen blur for about a second, making it much harder to aim and do damage back.

Apologies. Did not mean "you" as in you. It was in more broader terms as there seems to be many that still believe the divide between the 3L is still as big as before. Fixing netcode has evened out the playing field a lot more. Yes, ECMs still need tweaking but it is not as much an advantage as it was before.

Vassago Rain, on 03 February 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Then what's the point of taking big mechs if the small mechs will do the same thing, but move much faster?

So that there are moving targets for small Mechs?

[Wriath]

As a JR7-D pilot, quad slaser, double srm4, with 30 ping, I don't have many issues taking out any but the most skilled raven pilots. The ability to destroy a raven side torso in one or two shots vs. the unpredictable nature of streaks can be an advantage for the jenner pilot. I also find that between the slightly higher speed, and the ability to use jumpjets to avoid the slowing-jolting falls can allow a skilled jenner pilot to outmaneuver and escape from raven pilots in most situations. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm bragging about my ping or my aim or something, that's not the case. All I'm saying is that it is definitely possible to remain competitive in light mechs other than the raven. If more people practiced with srm's and using the jenner's mobility advantages I think there'd be a lot more dead ravens.

[Deamhan]

Raidyr, on 03 February 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Devs stated early on and quite frequently that lights performing as well as heavier mechs was a purposeful design decision. You should just let go of your fantasy outperforming other players because they chose a small mech than you.

Then it shouldn't be hard to link to such statements.

There is more to performance than just sustainable dps.

Vassago Rain, on 03 February 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Then what's the point of taking big mechs if the small mechs will do the same thing, but move much faster?

Exactly. As stated, there are lights that do have 3 or 4. I'm guessing that some have an extra one or two for the purpose of bringing TAG and/or NARC. I'd much rather see the extra hardpoints removed and these devices not need hard points. At least then it would make sense to place the TAG in that cockpit slot. One slot, no hardpoints and would be foolish to store ammo there. What's the point of it?

We would probably see these devices more often. It's not like TAG works if the user is within the bubble and NARC is restricted by ammo.

[Vassago Rain]

Deamhan, on 03 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Then it shouldn't be hard to link to such statements.

There is more to performance than just sustainable dps.





Exactly. As stated, there are lights that do have 3 or 4. I'm guessing that some have an extra one or two for the purpose of bringing TAG and/or NARC. I'd much rather see the extra hardpoints removed and these devices not need hard points. At least then it would make sense to place the TAG in that cockpit slot. One slot, no hardpoints and would be foolish to store ammo there. What's the point of it?

We would probably see these devices more often. It's not like TAG works if the user is within the bubble and NARC is restricted by ammo.

I would rather increase hardpoints on the big mechs, as the small mechs seem to work in their intended role, when up against the few other competent mechs.

It's weird. They seem to have focused SO MUCH on making assaults not the end-game, and lights viable, that assaults became heavier heavies, and lights turned into assault lights. And yet, the end-game result is the same, except it's all about the XL raven/jenner, instead of an annihilator.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Since the netcode improvement, I don't think light mechs are overpowered at all anymore. I one shot them frequently, and am one-shotted myself frequently while piloting a light nowdays. No other mech class is so vulnerable to insta-kill. I dare say we don't even need collisions back any time soon, though I welcome it all the same because it will further get rid of bad light pilots.The proof of the effect the netcode change has had is the massive decline in light mech numbers in PUG games in the last week or two. Jenners also seem to be re-appearing, though perhaps this has as much to do with people just getting sick of Raven 3Ls as it does with being able to hit more consistently with lasers and SRMs.

A lot of the people still complaining about light mechs are just low skill atlas pilots who don't know how to turn to handle lights. Sorry, but every good game since the dawn of time has a rock/paper/scissor mechanic, and a well piloted light is the paper to an assault mech's rock, as it absolutely should be.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 03 February 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[Deamhan]

Increasing the hard points of the others instead could work as well.

Although I don't quite agree that the light mechs currently work in their intended role. I mean, they can but the problem is that they don't often play their intended role. Too often they join in with the brawl and survive it.

Too often I've seen a light run into the enemy team, the team focuses the light, the light takes hits but then keeps taking hit after hit all the while the other 7 show up and start picking off the team while they are trying to kill the light.

Sorry but the light should not survive two seconds running into the middle of the enemy team and have them all focus the light.

So what ya do? I've also seen the team ignore the light and engage that other 7. Well, that light can be a raven 3L who can bring the same sustainable dps as a heavy, who can seem to take as many hits as a heavy without dying, but can also move at 130+ km/h, has ECM messing with the enemy team and is almost half the size of a heavy.

I've just come to realize the main problem. Most or at least key devs are light pilots.

[Josef Nader]

Vassago Rain, on 03 February 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Then what's the point of taking big mechs if the small mechs will do the same thing, but move much faster?

Small mechs can do the same thing as big mechs -because- they move so fast.

Look at the Scout from TF2. In a straight up fight, he's easily the worst class in the game. He has no health, his guns are terrible, and everybody else has nicer toys...

Except for the fact that Scout is so much more mobile than everyone else in the game. You'll almost never hit a good Scout player. He'll hit you from all sorts of weird angles and juke and dodge wildly and predictably, making it a challenge for even the best players to keep up with him.

Take a light mech and make it move at Medium mech speeds (and not the Cent D) and tell me that that mech can take on larger mechs. Every weight class should be equally viable in their own way. A light mech is -never- going to out-brawl an assault, but using his extreme speed and hit and run tactics, attacking from weird angles, etc. the light mech can easily send the Assault packing.

[Lugh]

Wait until collision is back in the game they'll be the most knocked over mech in the game and then the lease played as a result...

[Writhenn]

MWHawke, on 03 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

How are your comparisons even logical? Mechwarrior games compared to Mechwarrior games and Mechwarrior games compared to chess, starcraft and world of tanks?



I agree about the pubbies making a difference in terms of winning GAMES. But in this case, he took on the Lights and beat them, and again I reiterate, they were not randoms.

And note, I am not saying beat in game. Those were kills he made on his Mech against the other Mechs.



Now you are being dumb. These were people playing proper Mechs and in premade groups.



The damage is to show that he killed those Mechs in a fight cause otherwise, there might be people here who will claim that he steal killed.



Whatever. Feel good channel. Have a good day.

What? Can't handle the truth? Many of the people here I know because I play against often, Antares Scorpions, Wolf Spiders, Black Wolves, ELP, you are just some random. MW4 was a completely different playstyle than this. MWO =/= MW4.

The 6 medium Jenner runs too hot to be viable against the Raven. Heat gained vs damage done, the raven will always outdo in a team environment. The only team ever to field it against us in a match was Snow Raven, and that was once in which they used it to prime down our heavier mechs.

Anyone can be a pug star in a Commando and in a Jenner, field those mechs against groups like Snow Raven, Kaos Legion, Grey Fox, Paragon, ELP and WIN, I'd be impressed.

[Raidyr]

Deamhan, on 03 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Then it shouldn't be hard to link to such statements.

There is more to performance than just sustainable dps.

About halfway through. They have also mentioned it in several previews of the game. Light mechs are supposed to go toe to toe with heavier mechs by trading armor for speed. The problem is that right now, speed is far too powerful a defensive boost because when you are going fast the server literally makes you invincible.

Vassago Rain, on 03 February 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Then what's the point of taking big mechs if the small mechs will do the same thing, but move much faster?

They don't really do the same thing. Their ability to stay alive right now is predicated on the fact that the netcode is in a pretty bad spot, They have comparable hardpoints, but their chassis weight limits the amount of weapons they can put on when you consider heatsinks and ammo (see: every light with ballistic hardpoints). Heavier mechs can more easily wield larger weapons and most have more hardpoints. Heavies and Assaults both bring things to the table independent of lights, it's Mediums that seem to be squeezed the most. Not as fast as lights, not as well armed or armored as Heavies.

Vassago Rain, on 03 February 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I would rather increase hardpoints on the big mechs, as the small mechs seem to work in their intended role, when up against the few other competent mechs.

It's weird. They seem to have focused SO MUCH on making assaults not the end-game, and lights viable, that assaults became heavier heavies, and lights turned into assault lights. And yet, the end-game result is the same, except it's all about the XL raven/jenner, instead of an annihilator.

If we get useable hit detection light mechs like the Jenner and Raven should stop being overly survivable. It was supposed to be somewhat fixed in the latest patch but testing with some friends shows that it's definitely at play, atleast when moving maximum speed and maneuvering.

[80Bit]

Mizore, on 03 February 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

I'm sorry to tell you, but for players from europe it's not as easy as you say... I also drive a Cicada 2A (6 MLas) and my chances to beat a skilled Raven 3L pilot are around 5% or less, because you just can't reliably hit the Raven.

Oh and... Raven low DPS and Cicada high DPS? You must be joking!
- Raven 3L (3MLas + 2 SSRMs) has a DPS of 6.61
- Cicada 2A (6MLas) has a DPS of 7.5

I wouldn't call that a big difference, but the Raven has SSRMs and so his real DPS should be much higher than that of the Cicada, because only a small amount of the lasers DPS really reaches a fast light mech with crappy hitboxes.

The problem when you want to tell us that it's really easy to kill all these op-builds is always, that you assume they are played by low skilled pilots... but when you play against evenly skilled pilots in op-builds, they beat the **** out of you!

The superior DPS comment was colored more toward my HBK-4SP honestly, but my Cicada has slightly higher damage it can actually aim, where as I am spreading that streak damage over 3-4 areas of my mech.

Sorry about your ping issue, I hope they get European based servers up soon. But you can't balance weapons around abnormally high player pings. And I by no means think a Cicada vs 3L is an easy win. I was simply pointing out that lower DPS is the downside of SSRM2 and that its issues are mostly in in light on light play, and therefor balance should be looked at in that light.