46 replies to this topic

[Antarius]

Gaan Cathal, on 04 February 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

I don't think a small amount of adjustment is a problem, but the available degree of rating change atm is out of whack. The problem with reducing it is that you also need to reduce the amount of change-from-stock you permit in terms of armour, or faster mechs gain an advantage in armour they shouldn't have over their slower, more stock armoured, weight-class mates. E.g. the stock Raven is slow and armoured compared with the Jenner. Currently both can max at the same armour and (almost) the same speed. If the Raven gets even more reduced speed compared with the Jenner (fine by me) you also need to remove the ability for the Jenner to match the Raven's armour. Ergo if you want a hyper-fast, low armour 35-tonner, you go Jenner. If you want the armour more than the speed you go Raven. (Also ECM vs Firepower, but that only applies to one varient.)

first of all this wouldnt solve the problem they believe there is, it would only... only change some values Mech-class intern, you still got fast lights and heavys...


and still dont get where you believe there is a problem, i just used my Hunchi the last 10 PUGs, won nearly every game, died only two times, and had every time quite nice stats. One possibility, i am the best player ever (i doubt it) or you play/build Medium Mechs wrong.

little hint, wouldnt use a XL in a medium.

Edited by Antarius, 04 February 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Antarius, on 04 February 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

first of all this wouldnt solve the problem they believe there is, it would only... only change some values Mech-class intern, you still got fast lights and heavys...

Fast lights and heavies (and mediums) are supposed to be fast though. A Dragon can quite comfortably outpace a Hunchback for example, but it's comparatively undergunned despite it's weight advantage.

[Spot]

I have no issue poiloting a slightly slower mech. Works for me every time.

[Poisoner]

If you want a good medium mech, throw a bigger engine in it.

[Bloody Moon]

It seems the arguements i've been expecting from the beginning finally arrived.

Namely the "mediums are the workhorses of Battletech" and the use hit and run tactics spiced up with a bit of "i've been winning in pugs with them".

So let's take them one by one:

Hit and run tactics are fine as long as you have a noticeable speed advantage over the opponent, that is roughly along the lines of 15-20KPH, the current 6KPH speed advantage is NOT enough to break off an opponent, you won't be able to escape if the enemy is competent enough.

The fact that someone won a handful of solo games in mediums cannot be accepted as proof that they are fine. I've won 600-700 solo pug games in them since the CB start does that mean anything?
It counts as nothing when considering if they are balanced or not!

And here goes the old TT workhorse arguement: Are they really the bulk of the force?
In TT and canon they were commonly used 'cos they were cheap in terms of C-Bills and Battlevalue.
Here in MWO getting the C-Bills is only a matter of time 'n a really short one at that.

The problem with the whole Battlevalue balancing is that in MWO the teams have the same amount of people on each side.
Why is this a problem? In TT for every Atlas on one side there was the option to field almost 2 Hunchbacks on the other side. But in an online F2P game no one will play the role of sacrifical lamb if it is not forced on them so gameplay must be balanced on individual basis.

This is the problem i tried to illuminate in my second post here where i compared the Hunchback 4H with the CTF-1X. There is barely any reason for a player to take a HBK-4H instead of a CTF-1X even if they want to play their "i glued my *** to an Atlas" support brawler game.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 04 February 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Antarius]

Bloody Moon, on 04 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

This is the problem i tried to illuminate in my second post here where i compared the Hunchback 4H with the CTF-1X. There is barely any reason for a player to take a HBK-4H instead of a CTF-1X even if they want to play their "i glued my *** to an Atlas" support brawler game.

to get the CTF-1X at the same, roughly the same speed as an Hunchback, you have to make sacrafices, maybe XL-engine or less armour or even both to get a suitable weaponloadout, simply because the hunch is lighter, ergo needs a smaller engine for the same speed.
That a CTF-1X with a moderate speed rippes a hunch in pices if they engage battle, is sure, if the hunch stays in battle in front of em. You can outmaneuver em, easier than in the TT, in TT it didnt take two round for a torsotwist.

Bloody Moon, on 04 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Why is this a problem? In TT for every Atlas on one side there was the option to field almost 2 Hunchbacks on the other side.

yes in TT, in TT it would be nearly a fair fight, two hunch against a atlas, but not in MWO, there would 2 Hunch kill the Atlas, even two jenner can kill a atlas without a problem, even if the battlevalue of the atlas is higher. You cant use battlevalue (which btw, where also inaccurate in TT) in MWO.

Bloody Moon, on 04 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

And here goes the old TT workhorse arguement: Are they really the bulk of the force?
In TT and canon they were commonly used 'cos they were cheap in terms of C-Bills and Battlevalue.
Here in MWO getting the C-Bills is only a matter of time 'n a really short one at that.

You want Meduims to be the Workhorses, no problem, give the people a meta-game where you have something to do, like capture a planet, and there hit them hard with the R&R-club. Then the cheaper Mechs would be played more. (dont know why it should be this way, but if you want).

Next point, if there come some bigger Maps, you will see more lights and meds, because it will take a while to move to the objectives.


You quoting the TT and want at the same moment to change values adapted from the TT. In TT you can put a 400-engine in a CTF-X1, and this didnt made him uber...


i get annoyed everyone want to chance this because its should be more like this... this leading to patchwork, and we have enough of it allready.

dont change the meds, to make them more attractive, change the maps, the gamemodes to make them more attractive.

Edited by Antarius, 04 February 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Stringburka]

If there ever comes a mode where you can choose up to three mechs to drop a new one if you die, limiting tonnage would work great to solve this.

If each player had up to three mechs and up to 150 tons to play with, hunchies would see a strong comeback.

[Bloody Moon]

Fine let's see those sacrifices:

I took a HBK-4H build from here: http://mwomercs.com/...unchback-guide/

Link to the HBK build

Speed 64.8/71.3
Armor 320
Firepower 39
Cooling 39%
AC/20 (3 tons of ammo)
AMS (1 ton ammo)
2 Medium Laser
3 Small Laser

And made a CTF-1X build based on that.

Link to the CTF build

Speed 69.4/76.4
Armor 416
Firepower 45
Cooling 42%
AC/20 (3 tons of ammo)
AMS (1 ton ammo)
4 Medium Laser

Faster, more sustained DPS, more armor, better in every way AND still standard engine!

Edited by Bloody Moon, 04 February 2013 - 01:02 PM.

[Elyam]

Once the meta-game is under way, there will be missions with weight limits and unit quantity limits, and others where you'll need to make resource decisions. You're looking at a future where mssions made up solely or mostly of lighter mechs will be commonplace. Slow mediums will have their place, as they always have in BT.

Admittedly this level of mission detail is a ways off - a later stage in Community Warfare's evolution. We'll be dealing with 4/8/12-mech matches with open tonnage for a while. But eventually the meta-game will develop to a point where we're really getting a pretty nice simulation of a living Inner Sphere.

(might I be wrong? I suppose...but I'll stay confident with this prediction since it's based on the norms of BT/MW)

Edited by Elyam, 04 February 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Antarius]

if you push the CTF you have to push the hunchi too.
Give him a

here
4H
255std
AC20
3xSL
2xML
10DHS

with
speed 82.6km/h / 90.9
armour 286
firepower 39

can easily outmaneuver the ctf.



but i wanted to rewrite my last post.

there are some possibilitys why you want to change the Medium Mechs:

• you beliefe there are to weak (why should they be the class of all four who are weak, but enlighten me)
  
• they have no own role, like lights are scouts assaults brawler heavies ?support? (assaults can do what heavies can do only with more firepower, are they better?)
  
• to less medium Mechs in 8vs8 premates (can be, dont play 8vs8 pre, but thats not a problem of the Meds, its a mix of, you can pick what ever you want, lights have lagshield, cant get easily countered by mediums in point of capturing (in Assault-mode) and some other stuff) if a play a round of 3 hunch, 3 cent plus 2 cicadas for ECM, vs 8 atlas or heavies, you win, cause you can capture if they are midmap, if they def with some Mechs, you hit em with 8 meds vs 4 heavies/assault still no problem)

so i dont get where a "real" problem is.



There is maybe one now, but i believe it has nothing to do with the implemention of the Mediums, more with the circumstances, with bugs / maps etc.

Edited by Antarius, 04 February 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

I have mastered three hunchbacks and am currently working on centurions.

I do very well in these mechs. The hunchback has served me the best compared to all over mechs. They are no were near useless. I think the OP has a very narrow view on how the game should be played.

The medium weight class has a role in the game for the people who know how to use them. They can scout, skirmish brawl, and support when needed. The medium mech is the most versatile weight class in Battletech.

[Bloody Moon]

@ Antarius I take up that challange.

4KPH tradeoff for a bit more DPS and +2 firepower
AND +90 Armor. That 1/3rd more armor counts a lot when they are barely larger (Hunchies are 13,5m high Phracts are 15,5m as far as i know).

Link to the CTF

Link to the K2

@Dirus Nigh
They are not useless, but in the current situation whatever you want from a medium there is a heavy that can do better.
Sniper check.
Brawler check.
All-rounder check.
If you send a "slow" medium to scout then you'll have a bad time when their heavies can tail him without trouble.
Then again heavies are very close to mediums in terms of speed or in some cases they can outrun them.

Show me a medium build and i can show a heavy that can do a much better job at it.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 04 February 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Antarius]

still faster

still want to see how the torso-twist would work at each other, but made your point.

the same challange could you make between a jenner and a comando, between a cicada and a comando/jenner.

therefore you have smaller hitmodels and i doubt anyone would drive your CTF.


@Bloody Moon
Whatever you want from a heavy there is a Assault that can do better.
Sniper check.
Brawler check.
All-rounder check. (even with heavies problematic...)


the slow ones, are for the people who want to play a medium and and want to make damage, simply. If there is a heavy who can be nearly so fast (dragon even faster i guess, but with less firepower) he takes up a slot for a heavy, and is only a bit better? (and still slower ) for matchmaking


and if you got a better heavy for this here, i am convinced

Edited by Antarius, 04 February 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

Yes the Commando might have some balance problems aswell, but not the Cicada.

About assaults, no they are noticably slower than heavies not just 4-6KPH so in reality heavies can get away from them this is the advantage i want to give to all mediums when compared to most heavies, the possibility to run faster.

Since there are more effective heavy builds, no these won't be played, but those heavy builds far outshine any role a medium can take.

The problem is that in the current and any future matchmaker there is a chance that mediums will face a team consisting of many heavier mechs and the most he can hope for is to have a fair fight against the one mech that was matched against him in case that player has a similar build.

If the other player is in a Cicada or fast medium (Cent-D for now, Trebuchet later on) he has the chance to outrun the Hunchies or slow Cents in case he has lighter armor/weaponry or both same with the lights on the enemy team. Our pilot is left to fight against heavies or assaults, both have an advantage over him.

Anyway i think i made it clear why do i want what i want, i'll bring this topic up again when we'll have the ELO matchmaker, it will be much more visible if everything stays the same by that time.

ps.: Why the hell would someone who plays "slow" mediums want to keep them outmatched is beyond me...

ps2: Here is the better heavy. The tiny side torsos make the XL engine just as effective as the standard is in the Cent. Almost as fast, more firepower, more ammo, more armor and to disable the SRM6 salvos one needs to take down both ears AND it has 4 Jumpjets.

Whenever that page considers my build acceptable for linking. >.>

Edited by Bloody Moon, 04 February 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

I have lots of fun in my Hunchies. Mediums outmaneuver heavies and assaults, but not lights. Mediums outgun and out-tank lights but not heavies or assaults. Not sure what you're complaining about, OP.

[Bloody Moon]

Solis Obscuri, on 04 February 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

I have lots of fun in my Hunchies. Mediums outmaneuver heavies and assaults, but not lights. Mediums outgun and out-tank lights but not heavies or assaults. Not sure what you're complaining about, OP.

I don't doubt that you had a lot of fun in them, but on similar builds they won't outmaneuver heavies as in the current implementation turning is related to speed and nothing else. A heavy capable of running at 64.8 KPH turns at the same rate a medium with the same capability unless there was a stealth change on that which is not listed in the patch notes.

[focuspark]

TLDR: soon an ELO system will be place where each player is given a value + a value for the mech they've choosen. Each side will be balanced by mech type (light, medium, heavy, and/or assault) and the ELO vvalue. This should help even things out.

The new guy in his fancy Atlas is not as effective as the veteran in his Hunkback; no matter how unbalanced you think those two 'mechs are. Arbitrary values assigned to equipment are meaningless because human skill plays a far bigger role in balancing matches.

As for medium 'mechs out maneuvering heavier 'mechs... I put the biggest damn engine on anything I pilot because positioning is everything. Unless you do the same thing, my heavy mech will keep up or even out pace your medium. Sure I sacrifice raw firepower, but what firepower I do bring I bring to the right places.

[Solis Obscuri]

Bloody Moon, on 04 February 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

I don't doubt that you had a lot of fun in them, but on similar builds they won't outmaneuver heavies as in the current implementation turning is related to speed and nothing else. A heavy capable of running at 64.8 KPH turns at the same rate a medium with the same capability unless there was a stealth change on that which is not listed in the patch notes.

I've always thought the 50 tonners turned a little better than a 65 or 70 with the same MP; but wither way I have a feeling there will be more distinguishing mediums from heavies soon:

InnerSphereNews, on 04 February 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

BattleMechs will start to receive quirks, starting with the Awesome. These quirks come in the form of small adjustments to rotation, movement, and other mech stats. Each variant will now feel a little different.

[Bloody Moon]

Yeah that is good news, i prolly just missed it.

[Asmudius Heng]

There has to be a dynamic battle value and drop limits based on BV to allow mechs that are seen as less competitive to actually shine. There can be no true economy except the economy of use to get this BV also.

A true economy means there needs to be input and output. However all we ever do is GAIN and GAIN and GAIN. My input for players so everyone amasses a massive amount of mechs and then simply chooses the best of the best. There is no mech destruction and R&R cannot work in a game that can be farmed as they found out to their dismay.

We can still change mechs to be better for their ROLES and start actually having role warfare - also stop the engines being the only determinate for how fast you can torso twist and change direction so that engines do not equate to agility as highly. So many thing that can be done to make less speed on slower smaller mechs not such a hinderance

However - there will always be less competitive mechs and this game is ALL about competition. As such a weighting on mechs based on PROVEN effectiveness on the battlefield over thousands of games will give you a rough idea of what mech works best - can can be weighted against the ELO stuff as well.

When you hit a a battlefield knowing you have a workhorse mech that may not be as good - but you just freed up a HEAP of BV/tonnage whatever for your team to get that awesome ECM raven or atlas etc then you will do better - those that buck the trend and do well with undervalued mechs will be a great asset as well even if they might do even better in a different mech.,

rambling ... long story short - nothing will ever stop some mech not being competitive with the sheer numbers of mechs and variants we have and will get as more come online.