12 replies to this topic

[Zaptruder]

Hi PGI,

I'm sure you guys have considered many options for balancing ECM, but just in case you haven't considered this option:

Break current ECM functionality up into more toggle modes...

Such that you have 4 modes that you can toggle between

1. Reduced targeting range to 250m
2. Counters electronic equipment (C3 master and slave units, TAG, NARC, BAP, etc)
3. Stops target lock on inside bubble (LRMs and streaks (i.e. if an enemy unit inside the ECM bubble has LRMs or streaks, they can't lock on any target).
4. Jams all modes of ECM.

This way, all the functionality of ECM is retained, and the primary function of ECM is retained; making it serve as a counter to LRMs and to a lesser extent, streaks, which were far too prevalent before ECM arrived.

But it forces a higher skill ceiling requirement for ECM to utilized to most effectively, while allowing the other pieces of equipment such as TAG/NARC/BAP to be more useful than they currently are.

Also, it avoids having to break the ECM up into multiple parts, which has less of an impact on Atlases and other future heavy ECM carriers than it does on lighter mechs. Additionally, once you've paid the 4.5t for the full suite of ECM functionality, you just end up with a similarly powerful ECM anyway.

[DocBach]

I say break ECM down to its most basic functions described in the basic rulebooks, anything more advanced make into a modules. You get to block Beagle, Artemis, Narc and C3 for free, but any of the more crazy, advanced effects from the higher rule sets you have to pay GXP and way more c-bills for.

http://mwomercs.com/...m-with-modules/

Edited by DocBach, 03 February 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[Red3]

I just want a way to turn it off. Sometimes using cover is better as it doesn't give away your (relative) position.

[Caleb Lee]

DocBach, on 03 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I say break ECM down to its most basic functions described in the basic rulebooks, anything more advanced make into a modules. You get to block Beagle, Artemis, Narc and C3 for free, but any of the more crazy, advanced effects from the higher rule sets you have to pay GXP and way more c-bills for.

http://mwomercs.com/...m-with-modules/

The only problem with this is it will only postpone the ECM imbalance a bit more. I responded in your thread already, but I also feel that modules should be implemented to help balance how BAP etc... was implemented.

They still need to fix or break ECM up into it's separate categories or at least provide hard counters like BAP with similar tonnage and slot requirements. Not some temporary EMP effect from PPCs or extending TAG which has to always be on and requires LOS. It also won't help with the complete information denial to whichever team has just that one more ECM mech and the ability to call targets, which to me should show up if you have LOS and are in locking range no matter what. 3n1 ECM is too OP with no hard counters.

[Fotracul]

i dont agree with this, i think my suggestion to nerf ECM to just work in distrupt mode, and buff the BAP to have ECM's counter mode, along it's basic functionality, thus the BAP having 2 modes and ECM one mode, is much better

[Zaptruder]

ECMs are the necessary counter to LRMs. Whatever is done, that needs to be retained to maintain their meta-game role.

If you have devices that can be equipped by every mech counter ECM, then you break ECM and the anti-LRM role it plays.

The reason you want an anti-LRM device in the game is to promote team based skill play, as well as improve the require skill level for LRM pilots. In the meta-perpsective, LRMs are still useful, but no longer dominant to the exclusion of other weapons.

Things like PPC ECM interruption and function toggling are soft counters that help to blunt the hard edge of ECM power, in turn helping to retain its overall role as an anti LRM device without making it useless, or blatantly countrary to the canon (i.e. having it only provide the LRM counter required 250m stealth shield).

[Polojilarious]

Heh, I was just about to make a suggestion thread with more or less the same idea. I was thinking three modes, as the anti-equipment mode is basically useless given how ineffective equipment currently is.


So, I'd have three ECM modes. Cloak, Disrupt, and Counter.

Cloak
Hides the user and all allies under 180m as it currently does. Enemies 200m out cannot get locks without TAG. Artemis is nullified. BAP increases detection range by a small amount (say, 50m). NARC, however, works just fine. So, NARCing a cloaked mech will reveal it to teammates at any range.

Disrupt
Disrupts enemies within 180m, preventing them from gaining missile locks on anything and increasing the time it takes to gather target information. Artemis and BAP are nullified. Enemy NARC beacons stuck to allies do nothing while within an allied disrupt field.

Counter
Jams one enemy ECM under 180m, regardless of its mode.

The idea is that, at any given time, an ECM mech should be vulnerable to either long range target locks and LRM fire while disrupting enemies, or short range targeting and SSRM fire while cloaking allies.

In play, a mech with ECM would use cloak until they reach enemies, then determine if it is more valuable to disrupt enemy missiles up close while leaving your team exposed to long range fire, or keep your team under ECM cover and deal with unhindered enemy brawlers and streaks.

[DocBach]

The problem with cloak mode is, that's all people will use. Why would you ever use disrupt to block Beagle or Narc? Who uses Beagle and Narc?

[StalaggtIKE]

Red3, on 03 February 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

I just want a way to turn it off. Sometimes using cover is better as it doesn't give away your (relative) position.

Switch it to counter mode. In this mode it gives no clues of your whereabouts. In fact I typically run in counter mode, unless:

• scouting over the ridge
  
• coming around a corner
  
• missiles are heading towards me or teammates
  
• fishing for ECM mechs in the area
  
• 1 on 1 vs a streaker.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 February 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[shotokan5]

I to this point have had nothing against the ECM with a 180 m cloking devise. I do not approve extending the range and then have to make all types of counter measures to combat it. It then takes to much away from the game.

If ECM would only protect the mech that has it fine but when when you can hide your entire force under it then I say enough is enough. I have used this in several open game using chat to tell them what to do. Needless the other team did not know what hit them. This should not be allowed sorry. Any team that learns how to do this is vertually invisable to the enemy unless seen and by then it may be to late.

What is the answer? Not sure. But adding more complex counter measures is not the answer.
One you be as said before the ECM would only work on the mech its on. With a small number of ECM mechs
that would even things out a bit. Then their is the matter of missle boats which under an ECM shield can not be locked on
or shot at unless visiable which is rair condidering that it is usually behind a building.

After being one of its greatest supporters, I have come to the point that if used well it borders on a cheat. Making a bunch of counter measures is not the answer either for it incresses the complexity of the game to the point you have load up with this or that to be able to play. Ecm is nice but not if you can shield a whole team.

[Polojilarious]

DocBach, on 04 February 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

The problem with cloak mode is, that's all people will use. Why would you ever use disrupt to block Beagle or Narc? Who uses Beagle and Narc?

Well, nobody, really. But you wouldn't be using disrupt to block beagle or narc, you'd be using it to prevent enemies from getting missile locks.

So, streaks would be totally unhindered by cloak ecm once the firer is within 200m of their cloaked target. To protect yourself against streaks, you'd have to swap to disrupt, which would shut down the missile locks on all enemy mechs within 180m of you. You'd be open to missile locks from outside that 180m, but if you can stay close to your target, their lock-based weapons are useless.

And that's the other use. Running up to an LRM boat under Cloak cover and switching to disrupt once in range to prevent them from firing their LRMS.

And I mean, in the brawls where everyone is basically under 200m, cloak would do nothing for your team unless the enemy team has LRMs hanging back.

So really, at any time you'd have to decide if preventing enemies missile locks is more important than providing cloak cover for your allies. Sometimes it would be, sometimes it wouldn't.

[StalaggtIKE]

Polojilarious, on 04 February 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well, nobody, really. But you wouldn't be using disrupt to block beagle or narc, you'd be using it to prevent enemies from getting missile locks.

So, streaks would be totally unhindered by cloak ecm once the firer is within 200m of their cloaked target. To protect yourself against streaks, you'd have to swap to disrupt, which would shut down the missile locks on all enemy mechs within 180m of you. You'd be open to missile locks from outside that 180m, but if you can stay close to your target, their lock-based weapons are useless.

And that's the other use. Running up to an LRM boat under Cloak cover and switching to disrupt once in range to prevent them from firing their LRMS.

And I mean, in the brawls where everyone is basically under 200m, cloak would do nothing for your team unless the enemy team has LRMs hanging back.

So really, at any time you'd have to decide if preventing enemies missile locks is more important than providing cloak cover for your allies. Sometimes it would be, sometimes it wouldn't.

Sounds like it could work. But wouldn't one be able to create a macro that could cycle through the modes? Not that it can't be done now, it's just no one really bother switching anyway since one mode does "everything" and the other is so specific.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 February 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Zaptruder, on 04 February 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

ECMs are the necessary counter to LRMs. Whatever is done, that needs to be retained to maintain their meta-game role.

If you have devices that can be equipped by every mech counter ECM, then you break ECM and the anti-LRM role it plays.

The reason you want an anti-LRM device in the game is to promote team based skill play, as well as improve the require skill level for LRM pilots. In the meta-perpsective, LRMs are still useful, but no longer dominant to the exclusion of other weapons.

LRMs are not broken. The effect of ECM blocking target locks untill 300 meters away is not only broken for the game it is a brake from canon as well.

LRMs like gauss rifles, PPCs, and ACs can easily be countered with tactics and not being an *****. Proper use of cover to shield your advance will negate LRMs rather effectively. While running out into the open, or trying to out snipe an LRM based team is just going to get you killed.

LRMs have weaknesses. It takes time to lock on, The greater the range the longer it takes for the missiles to travel, braking LOS brakes target lock so missile will not track the target. LRMs have a minimum range of 180m, get inside this range they are completely useless. LRMs need a teammate to spot targets past 800m.

To make LRMs truly effective you need at least one of two things to happen. The enemy team doing some thing stupid. Teammates who know how to spot targets and guide not only the missile carriers fire, they will also guide the rest of the team for best avenues of attack. You know team work.

ECM is completely removing any chance of LRMs to be effective in the game. It has a capability that it should not have. The ability to deny a players ability to target at long range is so far out of balance is effecting the whole game. Equipment is being changed to be balanced with ECM. Target locks can only be achieved with in a very narrow band of range. Matches are being determined by which team has ECM, or has more.

ECM needs to be changed. Removing the non-detection field should be the first thing done.