32 replies to this topic

[BigMooingCow]

The new shutdown mechanic (the "o" and "p" buttons) has been bugging me since it was changed. It's unnecessarily-complex, and doesn't make the game any more fun. Here's a great illustration of my point... from the current patch notes:

Quote

"Override Engaged" Visual + Audio + Gameplay Tuning

- When engaging override shutdown, a visual will flash on the screen “OVERRIDE ENGAGED”
- Betty will also alert you when override has been engaged
- If you manually power down while over 100% heat, you will remain powered down until you manually power up
- While in the middle of a power up/down sequence, you can press P to queue up the command to perform the opposite sequence
- It's also worth reviewing how the override and automatic shutdown system works, including the most recent changes:
- At any time you can press P to power your Mech on/off
- Each time you press P, there is a 0.75 sec cooldown before any additional presses of P are recognized; this is to help prevent people who constantly spam the P key from continually powering up and down
- If you press P while in the process of powering on or off, you will queue up a command to perform the opposite sequence once the current sequence is complete
- If your heat level reaches 100%, your Mech will automatically power down; it will automatically power back up again when your heat level drops below 100%
- Your Mech can be manually powered up again after an automatic shutdown by pressing P
- If you press O, you will command your Mech to override the automatic shutdown
- When O is pressed, Betty will alert you that override has been activated, an override warning will flash on your HUD, and it starts a 5 second timer during which, if your heat reaches 100%, the automatic shutdown is ignored. (Note: Even after the 5 seconds have passed, your Mech will not automatically shutdown if you are over 100% heat.)
- Each time you press O, you reset the 5 second timer
- You can manually power down after overriding the automatic shutdown by pressing P, however you will not automatically power back up when your heat drops below 100% (though you will know this has happened when your screen stops flashing red)
- If you remain powered up while over 100% heat, you will take damage to your internal structure

Holy carp! These are the instructions on how to shut down and power up your mech! TL;DR, anyone? Does anyone think that giant set of rules will make the game more fun?

It seems to me there are two thing to consider when talking about heat shutdowns: whether or not you are shut down at the moment, and whether you WANT to shut down to avoid damage, should you overheat. With that in mind, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest a MUCH simpler system:

* The "O" key toggles automatic overheat shutdown. When on, your mech will shut down when it overheats. When off, it won't. This is a permanent toggle within the lifetime of a match.

* The "P" key behaves as so:
If the mech is running:
Shut down
If the mech is shut down:
Start up
If the mech is transitioning:
Do nothing

* As your mech nears and passes 100% heat, you get visual indicators that you're in trouble. At 100% the heat gauge starts blinking and Betty yells at you. If heat climbs you get scary visual effects like steam visuals/noises or a red shift or your HUDs glitching. And of course, your ammo starts to blow up.

That's it. No "queueing". No 0.75sec lockouts. No wondering WTF will happen when you press "P". No obsessively pounding "O", wondering how long ago you last pressed it. You can operate in two very simple, and very easy-to-understand modes:

1) Your mech shuts down when you overheat, and you press P to bring it back, just like The Old Days.

2) You disable the overheat protection and live dangerously. You can cheat a bit on the 100%, but do it too much and You Go Boom. Lets make it reeeeeal punitive, so you feel the fear when you flip that switch off!

Now, I don't want to be nasty to PGI about the new system, but could anyone tell me why you would want to use the Rube Goldberg system PGI outlined in the current patch notes? And then could you tell me what percentage of players might actually understand this new system? And before you answer, consider the people you've seen in your deathcam, using their arm crosshairs for their torso weapons, firing their LRM's at 70M, and just generally not understanding even the most simple rules in the game.

The overheat system is now broken, and it should be fixed. I hope I don't sound like a jerk for saying so, but I think someone just needs to throw it out there for comment, and hopefully PGI considers the community's wishes. (If indeed, you all tend to agree with me.)

[Skandrannon]

I'm with ya. I have no idea why they changed one of the only in-game mechanics that people never complained about. It was unnecessary, and I really don't get why they made the change when there are other things that need to be fixed.

I'm going to paste part of an e-mail I sent to support after they told me that pressing O just delays a shutdown, but if you shutdown, you're hosed until your heat goes below 100...

So now, instead of being able to press O to override a shutdown that has already happened, you have to memorize the heat output for every weapon in the game, and do constant math on the fly, keeping your eye on your heat meter while trying to pilot and engage in combat in a mech.... I'm not saying disregard the heat meter, but since there is no true override now, if you overheat, you're usually dead.

Also, pressing O before you shut down to delay the shutdown.... is not an override, it's a delay. Pressing a button while shut down and coming back online while still over heated is an override. Someone is off on their definition. Like, 100% off.

So, to sum up, unless I'm constantly doing math and keeping my eye on my heat meter while trying to play a game an enjoy myself, I will shut down, without the ability to override the shutdown, only delay it if I catch it in time, despite the incorrect use of the word.

I'm not trying to be a forum troll here, but this sucks, it really sucks, and I've no idea why "they" felt the need to change one of the only game mechanics that people didn't ***** about into something horribly complicated.
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[BigMooingCow]

Yeah, it's a giant pilot workload increase for no added fun. Managing heat is part of BT, but this isn't managing heat; this is messing around twiddling buttons so you don't get murdered with a shutdown mech in the middle of a firefight.

Case in point: I just got back from the game. I was interested to see what the new patch was all about, so I fired up the game tonight. I tried out the JJ changes and didn't find the overall effect to be that much different on my Jenner (I don't own a Spider). Second round I brought out my PPC Stalker to see how the heat changes affected things. I misjudged my heat on one salvo and shut down, so I hit "p". Just once, of course! My mech powered up, then IMMEDIATELY POWERED BACK DOWN. By the time I got my mech powered up again, I was inches from death, and a Spider with two ML's finished me off in two shots.

Who the heck thinks this junk is fun?

Honestly, I don't really want to play MWO anymore. They peeled back cash rewards since the R&R days, so it takes more free time than I have to buy anything with C-Bills. Pugstomping is in full force thanks to a randomized matchmaker. The game itself has completely stagnated, with both game modes devolving into team deathmatch and CW nowhere on the horizon. We haven't seen a new map in forever and a week. And now I can't even keep my freaking mech powered up. I'm sorry to be a downer, but I'm totally burned out. I know this is the wrong way to go about asking for a feature change, but I boiled over tonight and I just can't take it anymore. The game is finally more pain than it is fun for me, which really bums me out.

Ugh.

[R 13]

I'll second (3rd?) the need to fix the overheat/shutdown/start-up mechanic.

This just shouldn't be that hard.

My suggestion for a fix is along the lines of what's been said, but closer to the now 2-patch-old model:

If my mech hits 100%, or maybe start at 95%, I should get the red light, warning klaxon, Betty bitchin' treatment .......

........BEFORE, (that part is REALLY important)....before the 'mech engages the shut-down sequence. I should have ~2-3 seconds to slap the 'O' key and avoid the shut-down.....that would run the risk of an ammo explosion, but would also allow me to keep moving to avoid fire while I cool down, or go out in a blaze of glory if i so please.

Keeping it punitive, your odds of blowing up should increase with the number of times you exceed 100% in a game. Or, if you have no ammo, stuff should start going wrong....maybe your HUD starts getting fuzzy after the 5th override, or movement control response gets sluggish after the 10th etc.

the first part is serious, the last part there is just spit-*******.

[screw ball]

i agree i shouldnt be confused as to what the button im pushing does

i agree i shouldnt be confused as to what the button im pushing does

[twibs]

In the old system you were forced to shutdown briefly. Now you can keep going and not shutdown at all if you want to.

I don't see any problem with this new system.

[aniviron]

twibs, on 05 February 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

In the old system you were forced to shutdown briefly. Now you can keep going and not shutdown at all if you want to.

I don't see any problem with this new system.

While I am inclined to agree that you need to be able to stop a shutdown before it happens, there is a problem with how it's working right now; as a few people above have said, being unable to override once you're down is going to get you killed. As it stands, if I fire a three-ppc alpha at 70% heat I'll be just fine on most maps, but on a couple of them that means going to 101% heat and an instant shutdown. Because there is a jitter in heat output based on the map, even loadouts you're familiar with will make you overheat sometimes when you think you won't, and unfamiliar loadouts will get you killed.

I'd much prefer a Mechwarrior 2-style system where there is a 1-2 second delay between going into full heat and the shutdown being engaged, complete with "heat level critical/shutdown sequence initiated." This way you will still be able to use override in a useful way, but still be able to shut down to avoid damage to your internals if you think shutting down is appropriate.

[Accused]

Yeah, when I hit "Override" I expect to "override" the shutdown. When I hit "Power Up" I expect to "power up", not power up then power down while being blasted at from all sides.

[Sennin]

Accused, on 05 February 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Yeah, when I hit "Override" I expect to "override" the shutdown. When I hit "Power Up" I expect to "power up", not power up then power down while being blasted at from all sides.

^ This. In every previous rendition of Mechwarrior that I can remember it has been this simple. If you hit override, congrats you just avoided a shutdown and took yourself into a whole new catagorey of "if you continue down this path bad things will happen" Such as...insanely hyper reactive warning alarms, loss of overall performance (such as mobility), ammo explosions, cirtical damage, reactor meltdown and finally...eject or die *****. It really should not be beyond this complicated, especially when considering your new players.

[Edit: Spelling]

Edited by Sennin, 05 February 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[BigMooingCow]

Accused, on 05 February 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Yeah, when I hit "Override" I expect to "override" the shutdown. When I hit "Power Up" I expect to "power up", not power up then power down while being blasted at from all sides.

Exactly. The changes seem to be designed to make it more difficult to control your mech. Even if that wasn't the intention (chaos = fun?), it certainly is the result.

The MW2 system wasn't bad; I spent a lot of time reaching for "o", so I could fire one last ML. I could be happy with that.

I think a match-permanent autoshutdown disable would be even better. It would give us all the opportunity to gain a little more heat capacity, with the downside of destroying our mechs if we cheat too much. That sounds like a really fun trade-off to me. Do I fire one last PPC? Will my SRM ammo hold up?

[DeadEyeDeale]

Queueing is a system which I have seen in many games, and often did not like them. For instance, in some games you would have an attack button, and the game remembered every time you pushed the button, up to 5 queues and would continue to attack. This lead to a need to very carefully control yourself so you could then stop attacking when you wanted to. While I suppose careful control is always best, you should be able to interrupt yourself and be certain that the game follows suit.

I feel like P is supposed to power up or down the 'mech, but since it is not visually clear when the 'mech is on and shutting down vs off and coming up (ie the time period for which the 'mech was not responding to P), there should be a clear indicator added to either the cockpit or the HUD. The O key then needs to override (I do like the fact it prevents shutdown) but it should also immediately abort any shutdown and begin a startup proceedure if not already in progress.

In addition, the ability to toggle the auto-shutdown on or off would be nice, as sometimes I do want to push my heat a little with a ML as an opponent dissapears around the corner. It also means that people who just turn it off will either learn to best manage heat themselves, or better appreciate the auto-shutdown safety feature.

[Red3]

I could care less about the "O" button, never used it, never will.

On the other hand the auto-startup thing, its kinda wonky. If I overheat, and press "P", it tells the mech to shut down after it auto-starts up. And i can't undo it with another press of the "P" button, cause that just tells it to start up after it starts up then shuts down.

Now I can adapt to this by not hitting the "P" button, ever, no problem. Just wait on the auto start.

So now the only thing the "P" button is good for is running off and hiding to protect my precious KDR. Got it

But seriously guys, there was nothing wrong with the way it worked before.

If anything, we just need to know when we have cooled down enough to start up again. Either with a dashboard light or a verbal queue from Betty. Then we'll know when its ok to press the "P" button, instead of mashing it repeatedly in a panic as our opponents turn us to slag.

[Chauneko]

You know, it's not CBT but seriously, an override toggle would be much preferred. I don't overheat more than once every ten matches or so and trying to remember that one time to hit O before I pull the trigger in the middle of combat is less than easy. I would much rather just permanently override automated overheat shutdowns at the start of every match and choose when I need to shutdown to chill than have my computer tell me I don't really control it.

[Training Instructor]

Yeah, they removed months of practiced reflexes for no reason at all.

I don't understand their justification for it.

I don't need an O toggle, I know when my alpha is going to overheat me. I do need to know that pounding one key in a game that isn't always responsive to key commands was a sure fire way to restart my mech. It seems like that even with quickstart I spend more time powered down now, thus vulnerable.

[Skandrannon]

Keep this thread going... only way they're going to understand that the unnecessary change they made is making the game suck.

[Lentil]

+1 OP.

Living in "Override" is something that would be pretty daring... considering how quickly the mech seems to self-destruct. It would be a whole heck of a lot easier to understand.

Does the shutdown/startup sequence seem longer now that the pilot is being animated pushing the buttons? I can't really tell if it's added time, or just makes it seem slower.

[Mister Maf]

I would be OK with an override toggle either for the whole match or the next emergency shutdown, but one of the two must be implemented. The current system is needlessly and overly complicated, not to mention the fact that it doesn't work how you want it to half the time. +1 also for errors and performance issues as penalties for too many overrides. I loved how your HUD got gradually covered over in static as you took increased damage in MW3 - something like that at a minimum would be neat.

[MasterBLB]

Bad idea imo.
The old system was better,simple and intuitive.
So there is no need to make a revolution with it devs,just leave the functionalities as they were and add one simple feature to 'O' key:
When pressed if a mech isn't overheated Betty should announce something like "Overheat shutdown sequence disabled for 5 seconds" and big red counter similar to ex base-capping message should be displayed:
"Overheat shutdown blocked for X seconds"
Each time O is pressed during block the counter should be reset.
After these 5 seconds flow Betty should announce somesuch like "Overheat shutdown sequence enabled"
Of course,a player can manually power off mech during block by pressing 'P'.

This way is simple,intuitive,doesn't break what the players used to,and gives extention in functionality you devs wanted to add without messing everything.

[jay35]

BigMooingCow, on 05 February 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

The new shutdown mechanic (the "o" and "p" buttons) has been bugging me since it was changed. It's unnecessarily-complex, and doesn't make the game any more fun. Here's a great illustration of my point... from the current patch notes:



Holy carp! These are the instructions on how to shut down and power up your mech! TL;DR, anyone? Does anyone think that giant set of rules will make the game more fun?

It seems to me there are two thing to consider when talking about heat shutdowns: whether or not you are shut down at the moment, and whether you WANT to shut down to avoid damage, should you overheat. With that in mind, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest a MUCH simpler system:

* The "O" key toggles automatic overheat shutdown. When on, your mech will shut down when it overheats. When off, it won't. This is a permanent toggle within the lifetime of a match. There's also a problem now where the mech appears to shutdown without warning due to heat, because either Betty is a lot quieter with the warnings or there simply isn't one anymore. People were all griping about it in the matches I played last night. It's ridiculous to be fighting and then suddenly your mech just shuts down for no apparent reason because there was no clear indication you were reaching max heat or exceeding it. Why was this changed?

* The "P" key behaves as so:
If the mech is running:
Shut down
If the mech is shut down:
Start up
If the mech is transitioning:
Do nothing

* As your mech nears and passes 100% heat, you get visual indicators that you're in trouble. At 100% the heat gauge starts blinking and Betty yells at you. If heat climbs you get scary visual effects like steam visuals/noises or a red shift or your HUDs glitching. And of course, your ammo starts to blow up.

That's it. No "queueing". No 0.75sec lockouts. No wondering WTF will happen when you press "P". No obsessively pounding "O", wondering how long ago you last pressed it. You can operate in two very simple, and very easy-to-understand modes:

1) Your mech shuts down when you overheat, and you press P to bring it back, just like The Old Days.

2) You disable the overheat protection and live dangerously. You can cheat a bit on the 100%, but do it too much and You Go Boom. Lets make it reeeeeal punitive, so you feel the fear when you flip that switch off!

Now, I don't want to be nasty to PGI about the new system, but could anyone tell me why you would want to use the Rube Goldberg system PGI outlined in the current patch notes? And then could you tell me what percentage of players might actually understand this new system? And before you answer, consider the people you've seen in your deathcam, using their arm crosshairs for their torso weapons, firing their LRM's at 70M, and just generally not understanding even the most simple rules in the game.

The overheat system is now broken, and it should be fixed. I hope I don't sound like a jerk for saying so, but I think someone just needs to throw it out there for comment, and hopefully PGI considers the community's wishes. (If indeed, you all tend to agree with me.)

Thanks for this reasonable suggestion and simplification. I've never had or seen more issues with preventing shutdown and starting back up than since the latest patch.

Edited by jay35, 07 February 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[Rippthrough]

This sounds like a far better implementation of the shutdown/startup/override setup to me, very simple, very effective, no more shutting down after powering up because you hit 'P' a millisecond too late.

I would really like to see this become the new system.