298 replies to this topic

[Tincan Nightmare]

SpiralRazor, on 11 February 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

it doesnt have the same range at an AC/20 you tard.....geez... Max range on an AC/20 is 810. Youre causing 10 damage all at once out to 540. It would also literally take 30 seconds to make the changes in the XML file.

L2Mech and L2code



Battle Tech machine guns are our light automatic cannon. Mechwarrior the RPG details it pretty clearly.

Wow go to work and come back and its people acting like children throwing insults instead of having a debate or conversation in a civil matter. As far as the range of the AC/20 to the MG look at the title of this thread, you stupid 'tard. I was talking about the concepts people have been throwing out to make a 0.5 ton weapon 'viable' by giving it increases to range or damage, resulting (if you go by the title of this thread) in an MG with the reach of an AC/20. The sad fact is that there has never been a 'light' choice for ballistics. The AC's always stopped at the AC/2 and then theres the MG. The fact that some people are but hurt that they can't go out and put on 4 MG's and just saw their way thru mechs like cheese is just breaking my heart. Even funnier is that the 2 mechs in question who are hurt by the lack of a 'viable' light ballistic choice, the Spider and Cicada variants with 4 ballistic hardpoints, in TT only mounted 2 MG's. So maybe it would be more productive to give them 2 ballistic and 2 energy hardpoints. And how hard is it to circle strafe a slower target and keep ANY weapon on target, most lights don't seem to have a problem with it in the game now. But of course we should give them a better weapon to attack rear armor with continously with no heat issues. I don't care anymore, coming back and seeing people resort to insults and attacks to get their way like 5 year olds has soured me on this thread and I'm done. Hell I hope devs give MG's a damage nerf now just in the chance to see all the crying from the MG fanatics.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tarman, on 11 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

The mathematic fields are failing, down to 35%. There is a great deal of counter-mathematic field generation being provided. However, semantic deflectors have been re-deployed. Reason has been averted for now, captain. I am not sure of the efficacy of the continuation to engage the lifeform in this manner, it appears highly resistant to common-sensors.

I believe people missed this.

[Tarman]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Gatling gun does not an AutoCannon make.

pictures of 7.62mm Gatling Guns. (Machine guns)

20mm Vulcan Cannon (Gatling cannon)

Understand that to a soldier a rifle is not a gun, it is a rifle. So if the military calls it a cannon it is. If they call it a machine gun it is. If the Army and Marines are in disagreement, I was a Marine...




OMG I want one of these!!!!!!

Are you seriously still trying to use a semantic argument? If you were in the real military, then take this debriefing, soldier.

The guys who made this game knew less about military hardware than most of the people who play this game right now. This is pre-internet, they created stuff they thought was cool. In 1981. They were not weapons experts, nor science experts. They were giant robot fighting fans. They used names and terms and concepts that were chosen for their contribution to the Rule of Cool. They were not chosen for their accurate and realistic representations of actual and future weapons systems and technologies.

Your continued use of mincing terminology differences to support your 30 years of being unable to operate machine guns is merely heading the conversation back into a pointless debate over what you personally believe the terms to mean, and how little you personally used the system. Irrelevant. You are being deliberately obtuse on this topic.

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Gatling gun does not an AutoCannon make.

pictures of 7.62mm Gatling Guns. (Machine guns)

20mm Vulcan Cannon (Gatling cannon)

Understand that to a soldier a rifle is not a gun, it is a rifle. So if the military calls it a cannon it is. If they call it a machine gun it is. If the Army and Marines are in disagreement, I was a Marine...




OMG I want one of these!!!!!!

God you are so misinformed it's not even funny

I do this crap for a living, my job is to sell death and death accessories.

Infact today I just got off 100% acceptance on a bunch of flash because it failed some test in god knows where.

So I had to sit and inspect about 500k cartridges for 10 hours.

No one in their right mind would put a standard small arms machine gun in a battlemech and there is no way it would weigh half a ton without good reason.

Especially when half a ton of ammo is considered 100 rounds, this thing is 20mm party mix, TOPS.

Unless you want to come down to priming and charging and tell me how to do my ******* job ARMCHAIR COMMANDO.

WHERE DID YOU SERVE? THE MOON AS A SHUTTLE DOOR GUNNER?

Edited by ConnorSinclair, 12 February 2013 - 03:33 AM.

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Who did? Where?
Machine Gun

TechManual calls the Machine Gun, "the quintessential Anti-Infantry Weapon".

And 20mm is where ACs begin in real life not MW or CBT.

>directly in link

>Quicksell 20mm

[Joseph Mallan]

ConnorSinclair, on 12 February 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

God you are so misinformed it's not even funny

I do this crap for a living, my job is to sell death and death accessories.

Infact today I just got off 100% acceptance on a bunch of flash because it failed some test in god knows where.

So I had to sit and inspect about 500k cartridges for 10 hours.

No one in their right mind would put a standard small arms machine gun in a battlemech and there is no way it would weigh half a ton without good reason.

Especially when half a ton of ammo is considered 100 rounds, this thing is 20mm party mix, TOPS.

Unless you want to come down to priming and charging and tell me how to do my ******* job ARMCHAIR COMMANDO.

WHERE DID YOU SERVE? THE MOON AS A SHUTTLE DOOR GUNNER?

2 Bat/5th Marines (Retired) You sell death... I ADMINISTERED it! Arm Chair My ash!
Dam merchant telling a professional killer his trade



20mm with bullets= Machine Gun
20mm w Shells=Cannon.
a fine distinction but a line to be defined.

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

2 Bat/5th Marines (Retired) You sell death... I ADMINISTERED it! Arm Chair My ash!
Dam merchant telling a professional killer his trade



20mm with bullets= Machine Gun
20mm w Shells=Cannon.
a fine distinction but a line to be defined.

but the gau-8 fires bullets and the military calls it an auto cannon.

The A-10 main weapon which shreds tanks fires bullets not shells.



Note that the 20mm vulcan cannon fires bullets.

The 30MM A-10 maingun which is designed to shred tanks fires bullets as well

Edited by Sifright, 12 February 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

2 Bat/5th Marines (Retired) You sell death... I ADMINISTERED it! Arm Chair My ash!
Dam merchant telling a professional killer his trade



20mm with bullets= Machine Gun
20mm w Shells=Cannon.
a fine distinction but a line to be defined.

No, it doesn't work like that.

It generally gets skewed, in the 60's 20mm was considered gun and not cannon.

But honestly, 50 hmg on a mech would not work considering the rules. 50 would be like pelting ants with bb's, you couldn't hit squat, the 30mm however......

Plus the damage to srm strikers and harassers and light armor.

It just makes more sense 30mm considering its the same weight in weapon, ammo and crit space.

Even more sense against Power armor.


But beyond this, in terms if a video game, MG's need their place.

They need a super buff against non armored components at the very minimum.

Getting hit with MG's with no armor was like having some one pour acid into a wound.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tarman, on 12 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

Are you seriously still trying to use a semantic argument? If you were in the real military, then take this debriefing, soldier.

The guys who made this game knew less about military hardware than most of the people who play this game right now. This is pre-internet, they created stuff they thought was cool. In 1981. They were not weapons experts, nor science experts. They were giant robot fighting fans. They used names and terms and concepts that were chosen for their contribution to the Rule of Cool. They were not chosen for their accurate and realistic representations of actual and future weapons systems and technologies.

Your continued use of mincing terminology differences to support your 30 years of being unable to operate machine guns is merely heading the conversation back into a pointless debate over what you personally believe the terms to mean, and how little you personally used the system. Irrelevant. You are being deliberately obtuse on this topic.

And you feel this is a good reason. This was Pre internet. Where the people making this stuff used... Books to identify weapons. you think nobody could look up information before the net. There is much more DIS information thanks to the net, than actual information.You do realize You are actually making my point as to how bad the net is for fact finding as maybe 3 of my posts after the quoted one, I not only gave to the fact that a 20mm MG uses bullets, But the Vulcan was a cannon due to the ammo used. And that will be a distinction that will not yield to attempts to shame. Like it or not there is a distinction between cannons ant machine guns.

Unable to operate machine guns. Well partly true, nobody ever got within 3 hexes for me to use em.

As a civilian you need to learn a few things. As a Marine, I was not a Soldier.
I was an Infantry Marine.The distinction is important.

Quote

We stole the eagle from the Air Force, the anchor from the Navy, and the rope from the Army. On the 7th day when God rested we overran his perimeter and stole the globe, and we’ve been running the show ever since. We live like soldiers, talk like sailors, and slap the hell out of both of then at the same time. Fighter by day, lover by night, drunkard by choice, and a United States Marine by an act of God.

Never call a Marine a Soldier...

Sifright, on 12 February 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

but the gau-8 fires bullets and the military calls it an auto cannon.

The A-10 main weapon which shreds tanks fires bullets not shells.



Note that the 20mm vulcan cannon fires bullets.

The 30MM A-10 maingun which is designed to shred tanks fires bullets as well

the A-10's main gun is a cannon and fires these shells (and one target practice round)

GAU-8 Ammo
PGU-13/B - High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) Shell
PGU-14/B - Armor Piercing Incendiary (API) Uses a High density Penetrator (Shell)
PGU-15/B - target Practice (Bullet)

now can we please get back to discussing the Game mechanics?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 February 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 February 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

And you feel this is a good reason. This was Pre internet. Where the people making this stuff used... Books to identify weapons. you think nobody could look up information before the net. There is much more DIS information thanks to the net, than actual information.You do realize You are actually making my point as to how bad the net is for fact finding as maybe 3 of my posts after the quoted one, I not only gave to the fact that a 20mm MG uses bullets, But the Vulcan was a cannon due to the ammo used. And that will be a distinction that will not yield to attempts to shame. Like it or not there is a distinction between cannons ant machine guns.

Unable to operate machine guns. Well partly true, nobody ever got within 3 hexes for me to use em.

As a civilian you need to learn a few things. As a Marine, I was not a Soldier.
I was an Infantry Marine.The distinction is important.



Never call a marine a Soldier...


Fires a bullet. it also fires shells.

IT'S A CARTRIDGE

[Joseph Mallan]

ConnorSinclair, on 12 February 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

IT'S A CARTRIDGE

Which is a blanket term for:
a round, a shell or ammunition.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 February 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 February 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Which is a blanket term for:
a round, a shell or ammunition.

which you copy pasted right off the wiki page ya tool.

you aren't going to win this, I do this **** for a living.

Its why I'm not on until 5 am in the morning.

Edited by ConnorSinclair, 12 February 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

And? Is there a problem with that?
A cartridge is a generic term.

30mm

(interesting disclaimer)

Quote

This article needs attention from an expert in Military history. The specific problem is: The article seems to be a split from Shell (projectile). It fails to distinguish between "shell", "shot", and "round". It lacks the basic explanations. It does not mention many designs (APDS, HVAP, ...).. WikiProject Military history or the Military history Portal may be able to help recruit an expert. (September 2011)

You're not going to win, I used this stuff for a living!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 February 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[trebormills]

As long as I can pew pew and dakka dakka whilst also sometimes going BOOM, kerchunk- Im pretty happy
A bit more range on the MG would be nice however- 90m just seems a bit pants.

Hand waving that mg goes 1000m but only damages mechs at 90m or less helps your head

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 February 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

And? Is there a problem with that?
A cartridge is a generic term.

No it's the technical term, it's the term used by the people who made it.

And I don't think you're a marine because a marine would not be as assinine as to argue over a broken video game mechanic or over a subject he has no field of expertise on.

I've held a handgun once, but that doesn't make me an expert on them.

same applies to you.

Sincerely,

The hank hill of Auto cannons.

Edited by ConnorSinclair, 12 February 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

You don't know Marines very well sir!
20mm Shells
Target practice rounds may qualify as bullets but as some of them are "empty" I think they still may qualify as a shell.

You've held a hand gun. Were you given the Military classes on what a weapon is? We are quite specific on what we kill people with.

[Kousagi]

Weapon ranges in BT were cut down for gameplay reasons. I mean If we look at the M240B its Max range is 3,725m, that would be like 124 hex's, just a little crazy. So everything got cut down to something more manageable and for what worked in their game system.

MG's in BT are at the least 20mm or less and may be Gatling guns ( based on models by manufactures in the game world). but! This is another thing that is standardized in BT. They Don't all have a set caliber/rate of fire. The only thing they all have in common is how much damage they do in X amount of time. Like in TT, when a MG shoots, it only uses 1 ammo. Do you reallllly think 1 bullet will wreak havoc on a group of infantry? Nope, Its the same with AC's, that 1 ammo just represents 1 burst of fire that equals 2 damage. So depending on what type of MG it is, that 1 "ammo" could be any amount of rounds that were really shot.

As for the whole cartridge thing, At least during my time in, I was always under the impression that the brass itself that Holds the bullet/shell is what we call a cartridge. Which the wiki page kinda says the same thing... Though we always refered to it as brass when it was empty.

Though yes, 20mm and below are counted as MG's, 20mm and above are cannons, The difference at 20mm is the type of rounds the weapon uses. Bullets vs shells. Now go find me a shotgun blank adapter and a box of grid squares.

[Joseph Mallan]

True Kousagi. look what they did to LONG range missiles and Gauss. i have a friend who has a team of minions cutting parachutes off the Gauss so the will actually travel to their true terminal distance!

[stjobe]

So, getting back to topic after this refreshing derail about bullets, shells, calibres, and people's service record:

The MG is underpowered. It is underpowered to such a degree that anything you replace one with is an upgrade. It needs a buff, and the devs have recognized this and are in the process of trying out a crit-damage buff.

In my opinion, a crit-damage buff is neither necessary nor effective for making the MG a weapon you'd want to take instead of, say, being a ton short. The reasons why is primarily that the weapon will still be ineffective for most of the battle, and only effective when other weapons are equally or more effective. In short, it's a buff in theory only.

Furthermore, and still in my opinion, the simplest way of making the MG a viable light-weight ballistic alternative is to simply triple its damage. While this indeed will put its theoretical DPS above that of the Small Laser, the downsides of being an ammo-dependent, continuous-fire weapon with short range and practically non-existent alpha more than makes up for this.

I don't think the MG needs a crit buff.
I don't think the MG needs a range buff.
I don't think the MG needs a cooldown.
I'm indifferent to whether the ammo count is changed.
I do believe the MG needs a 3x damage buff.

[Sifright]

stjobe, on 12 February 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

So, getting back to topic after this refreshing derail about bullets, shells, calibres, and people's service record:

The MG is underpowered. It is underpowered to such a degree that anything you replace one with is an upgrade. It needs a buff, and the devs have recognized this and are in the process of trying out a crit-damage buff.

In my opinion, a crit-damage buff is neither necessary nor effective for making the MG a weapon you'd want to take instead of, say, being a ton short. The reasons why is primarily that the weapon will still be ineffective for most of the battle, and only effective when other weapons are equally or more effective. In short, it's a buff in theory only.

Furthermore, and still in my opinion, the simplest way of making the MG a viable light-weight ballistic alternative is to simply triple its damage. While this indeed will put its theoretical DPS above that of the Small Laser, the downsides of being an ammo-dependent, continuous-fire weapon with short range and practically non-existent alpha more than makes up for this.

I don't think the MG needs a crit buff.
I don't think the MG needs a range buff.
I don't think the MG needs a cooldown.
I'm indifferent to whether the ammo count is changed.
I do believe the MG needs a 3x damage buff.

I am Sifright and I agree with this message.