298 replies to this topic

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Sorry but 120mm is in no means a Machine gun. Heavy or otherwise.

Play Piratesmoon and get back to me.

[Joseph Mallan]

ConnorSinclair, on 13 February 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

Without the feed all you have is a fancy barrel and hammer, hell the feed system is the most advanced part of the avenger. You might as well throw away the entire weapon without it.
Thats like saying, no you can't have the advanced Doppler with your Aim-7, because its not the actual missile despite the fact that neither could exsist without the other.

No. The Ammo and feed system in BattleTech Are part Ammo part weapon. And likely why A Mech Scale Machine Gun weighs 500Kg a ton v the 100Kg Machine gun on Battle Armor Which is the same strength as the Mech Scale weapon. See teh DEVs can and do make sheet up just to make them work in the game. Small Laser 500Kg for a Mech and 200Kg on Tornado PA(L) Battle Armor.
(FASA)physics.

[Joseph Mallan]

ConnorSinclair, on 13 February 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Play Piratesmoon and get back to me.

Play the Honor Harrington Space Naval Game and get back to me.
Different system different rules. try to keep your real world and MechWarrior comparisons separate from other game's universe physics

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

No. The Ammo and feed system in BattleTech Are part Ammo part weapon. And likely why A Mech Scale Machine Gun weighs 500Kg a ton v the 100Kg Machine gun on Battle Armor Which is the same strength as the Mech Scale weapon. See teh DEVs can and do make sheet up just to make them work in the game. Small Laser 500Kg for a Mech and 200Kg on Tornado PA(L) Battle Armor.
(FASA)physics.

Ammo storage aside, I'd still say it would be the weapons immediate magazine

And with MWO's new rules on ammo per ton it makes sense.

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

Play the Honor Harrington Space Naval Game and get back to me.
Different system different rules. try to keep your real world and MechWarrior comparisons separate from other game's universe physics

Now you're just being a babby,

HMG's have been in multiple games, including TT.

If we're going to play this, then they should just stick to TT rules and be done with it. I'm tired of the well this entry isn't X despite the fact that the only bad mech series games we had was Mech Assault.

If we can't have MG's the way the rules in numerous games have stated then throw them out, Just release Rotary and **** the time line.

It's not like PGI is in line with it any more, they keep screwing up the history.

[Joseph Mallan]

ConnorSinclair, on 13 February 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Now you're just being a babby,

HMG's have been in multiple games, including TT.

If we're going to play this, then they should just stick to TT rules and be done with it. I'm tired of the well this entry isn't X despite the fact that the only bad mech series games we had was Mech Assault.

If we can't have MG's the way the rules in numerous games have stated then throw them out, Just release Rotary and **** the time line.

It's not like PGI is in line with it any more, they keep screwing up the history.

heavy machine guns are in TT the weigh more and depending on if it's on Battle Armor or a Mech they even weigh different amounts.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

Play the Honor Harrington Space Naval Game and get back to me.

There is a Honorverse Space Naval Game?

[SpiralRazor]

Pirates Moon is Mechwarrior, derp....probably the *best* representation of Mechwarrior as well.

[Jakob Knight]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Your picture of the GAU-8 with the VW car, includes the weapon and feed system.The Picture I included is the Weapon without Ammo bin. Not nearly as impressive. Stand alone it IS the weight of a Clan Machine Gun (280 Kg or just over a 0.25 Ton)though.

Well, in BT, the weight of a weapon is the weight of the entire system, sans ammunition, so you do have to take into account the weapon, the feed system, guidance/aiming/control systems, and/or weapon doors.

Note also that they -did- an A-10 translation into BT, called the Mechbuster. If you look at that plane, you will see the cannon was considered an AC/20.

[Gaan Cathal]

Hey look, more repetition of the same real-life comparisons that have been addressed five times already in this thread and succeed mainly in swamping conversation about the actual issue in the game.

Summary for those who have been left with the impression this thread is about Modern Warfare Online:


-TT/Canon MGs can damage mechs (causing the same damage in a given unit time per MG as per Short Ranged Missile).
-Current MWO MGs cannot injure mechs (semantics aside, the damage they do is so negligible as to make being undertonned better than taking them)

-Unlike the SLAS, the MG has no similar-weight alternatives, leaving lightweight mechs with ballistic slots unnecessarily nerfed
-Despite the title, most people don't seem to think it needs a range increase, just damage
-There's apparently some dispute over whether continuous fire is an advantage or disadvantage

Other interesting points from the thread:

-Some TT veterans didn't read the rulebook closely enough, being under the impression MGs can only physically injure infantry
-The Clans apparently achieve their weight-savings by not reporting the ammo feed mechanisms on their weapons, thus deftly hiding their tonnage from the taxman
-An ammo dependent, continuous fire SLAS with no heat would lead to the End of All Things and supplant the Gauss/AC/20 as the primary ballistic, K2 cats would be Moar O-Pee
-Weapons engineers are clearly overcompensating for something
-Some ***** will inevitably take this second list entirely at face value


Edit: The 'expletive' is a fairly innocuous, if mildly insulting, term for a person of significantly below average intelligence.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 13 February 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jakob Knight, on 13 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well, in BT, the weight of a weapon is the weight of the entire system, sans ammunition, so you do have to take into account the weapon, the feed system, guidance/aiming/control systems, and/or weapon doors.

Note also that they -did- an A-10 translation into BT, called the Mechbuster. If you look at that plane, you will see the cannon was considered an AC/20.

A good argument.

As to the Mechbuster
And that weapon weighs 14 tons and fires a 120+mm Shell with Depleted Uranium penetrators. Not 30mm shells.
Really wanna use it as your in game example to buff a Machine Gun?

[Kousagi]

Since we know that MG's in MWO are 20mm guns or less ( since anything bigger is a cannon ), and that they Can hurt mechs, at least in TT. Then why don't you suggest to model a Gatling gun after the same mechanic that the airforce uses for the A-10's gun. As the Gau-8 can eat ammo Far too fast since it shoots really freaking fast, they put a limiter on the system to only be able to shoot X amount of bullets per trigger pull.

If we translate that in to the MWO, You can give the MG's a CD, and have to act much like a small laser would. Pull the trigger, it "burns" for X amount of time, in which its total damage is 2 points. They would have to play with amount shot, ammo amounts and all that to balance it out, but it makes everyone happy, and uses a more proven balance thing.

Edited by Kousagi, 13 February 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kousagi, on 13 February 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Since we know that MG's in MWO are 20mm guns or less ( since anything bigger is a cannon ), and that they Can hurt mechs, at least in TT. Then why don't you suggest to model a Gatling gun after the same mechanic that the airforce uses for the A-10's gun. As the Gau-8 can eat ammo Far too fast since it shoots really freaking fast, they put a limiter on the system to only be able to shoot X amount of bullets per trigger pull.

If we translate that in to the MWO, You can give the MG's a CD, and have to act much like a small laser would. Pull the trigger, it "burns" for X amount of time, in which its total damage is 2 points. They would have to play with amount shot, ammo amounts and all that to balance it out, but it makes everyone happy, and uses a more proven balance thing.

GAU-8 is a cannon. it is 30 mm and fires shells(the definition of a cannon). Now, if it were still 30 mm and fired only bullets, that would be a very big Machine Gun. and close to what a BT/WMO Machine Gun is.

Give it the firing rate of an AC2 (Very fast), Buff the damage to 0.8 (16 damage per turn) and that would be respectable for a 0.5 ton weapon. Keep the 2000 rounds of ammo too.

FYI... machin gun ammo did not get a Buff as other ammo dependent weapons did... Guess 2000 round is still more than enough!

[Wolfways]

Still going on about real world weapons...
The only similarity between BT MG's and real MG's is they are both called MG's.

I just want a weapon i can use in my ballistic slots in my ERPPC K2. In canon that's an MG.
I don't want a range increase.
I don't want a "crit-seeker"
I do want a weapon that's worth using - i.e, more damage (I have MG's on my K2 now, but only because i hate leaving weapon slots empty).

Edited by Wolfways, 13 February 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[stjobe]

Just a final note on the real-life weapon comparisons, since everyone and their mother seems so hung up on the name "machine gun" still that there seems to be some mental block around that word, and the fact that today a machine gun apparently cannot be of larger calibre than 20mm:

Those 120mm smoothbore guns our current main battle tanks use? E.g. the Rheinmetall M268 used by the M1A1 Abrams or the Leopard? Those aren't guns in BattleTech, neither are they cannons. They are called "Light Rifles" - and they are unable to damage a 'mech.

The BattleTech MG, on the other hand, does 2 damage to a 'mech.

Draw your own conclusions.

Edited by stjobe, 13 February 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Kousagi]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

GAU-8 is a cannon. it is 30 mm and fires shells(the definition of a cannon). Now, if it were still 30 mm and fired only bullets, that would be a very big Machine Gun. and close to what a BT/WMO Machine Gun is.

Give it the firing rate of an AC2 (Very fast), Buff the damage to 0.8 (16 damage per turn) and that would be respectable for a 0.5 ton weapon. Keep the 2000 rounds of ammo too.

FYI... machin gun ammo did not get a Buff as other ammo dependent weapons did... Guess 2000 round is still more than enough!

Who said anything about the GAU-8 not being a cannon? Though it still is a Gatling, and the rate of fire limiter is in place.

If you gave the MG that kinda buff, they would be quite OP. you forget, that MG's do not create heat. They can't have great damage output due to that fact. Think Spider with 4 MG's, thats 6.4dps for 0 heat.... thats far far far better then a 6 small laser jenner.

Also, how did MG ammo not get a buff from TT to MWO.... In TT 1 ton of MG ammo is 200, MWO is 2,000....

Edit: Also Stjobe, You left out the fact that the whole rifle class of weapons are based on "old tera tanks" the med and heavy can hurt battle mechs.The light/med/heavy do not denote caliber size, but are a rating on how much damage they could do per turn. The wiki says the main reason they were phased out is cause auto cannons did the same job better.... I mean, would you rather a big 120mm cannon that can shoot 3 rounds a minute or 100 rounds a minute.

Edited by Kousagi, 13 February 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Deathlike]

I don't think anyone has the actual grasp of what a constant stream of damage does to mechs if the DPS resembled to a small laser. It's really nasty. Light mechs have the simple ability to get close to any target by nature of their speed. Despite them being vulnerable in the aspect that they have to get close to you, the modified mgun damagewise would make you wish they didn't facehug you at all. It's almost like facing an Cata w/dual AC20s or a splatcat, except the mobility of a light would be able to make this effective vs most slower mechs (meds minus the cic and the larger chassis). Plus, since the mgun is streaming, you have no real evasive maneuvers to get out of the light mech's way outside of a good alpha. It would be a game of qq that lights become "reborn" or "more OPed than before".

[Sifright]

Another mg thread that needs to be closed and it's post count and link added to the MG discussion balance thread

This is a post to assist the mods in understanding the breadth of the problem I will be copy pasting this into older machine gun threads that did not recieve mod or dev attention so the feed back can be linked from the new thread.

[Egomane]

Closed!

For MG discussion go here: http://mwomercs.com/...eedback/unread/