443 replies to this topic

[shintakie]

stjobe, on 19 February 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Oh crap. You're right.

So you'll not be blowing off any limbs with your MGs then. You might empty them of components, but that's about it.

Bloody hell, that's depressing. Just when I was warming up to the idea that they got a semi-useful buff.

There's one up side to this. MG's will be crazy XP seekers since you get XP for every component destruction. Think of all those sexy sexy SHS kills you'll be gettin and the 10(?) xp per kill.

Downside! MG users guarantee less of a salvage bonus because they cant kill an enemy mech, but they do destroy components.

I have now imagined a fail scenario. 2 Mechs left in Assault. One has MG's, the other doesn't. The MG user has completely stripped every weapon system off the other mech, but crud...he's out of ammo and the only laser he has is destroyed. You can't win because you have no ammo with which to kill your opponent. You cant lose because they can't fire back.

You now sit there for 10 minutes while the clock ticks down for a draw.

Edited by shintakie, 19 February 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Arkmaus]

shintakie, on 19 February 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

You're right, this is magical BT fairy land.

You know what else makes absolutely no sense? Battlemechs. Any military that would willingly use a Battlemech would get absolutely destroyed by combined arms. Heck, they'd be absolutely destroyed by anyone who bothered to use a single aircraft.

So...whats your point that has to do with the topic at hand?

I understand what you are saying, perhaps I just don't grasp how everythign works in Battletech (I never played anything outside of the Mechwarrior games).

It still doesn't make sense to me though, however, I guess there are quite a few variables that are not mentioned that need to be taken into account seeing as that it is quite a ways in the future.

In retrospect, I think any argument for or against battletech weapons is somewhat moot without knowing every single variable.

My apologies for arguing with you, I think it just stems from what I "know" to be true, and what Battletech fantasizes to be true in it's own universe. I think my issue stems from trying to tie them together and make comparisons that really aren't there.

[Sifright]

shintakie, on 19 February 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

There's one up side to this. MG's will be crazy XP seekers since you get XP for every component destruction. Think of all those sexy sexy SHS kills you'll be gettin and the 10(?) xp per kill.

component destruction is when you blow an arm or side torso off it has nothing to do with blowing up equipment inside of a hit location.

[shintakie]

Sifright, on 19 February 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

component destruction is when you blow an arm or side torso off it has nothing to do with blowing up equipment inside of a hit location.

Wait what? Oh thats some crap.

So MG's not only do crud damage, they can't destroy components, they actually reduce your salvage gains by destroyin equipment, and they STILL can't kill anythin.

Optimism droppin for this change.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sifright, on 19 February 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

well you brought up the gauss rifle as a counter point (cherry picking the best example to make the mg look good)

I pointed out that the gauss rifle user would have murdered the light in that time.

As it should. It is a BFG that fires rounds that are both large and dense, that scream with velocity. It should smash a Mech to bits before a machine gun can erode my armor.

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 February 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

As it should. It is a BFG that fires rounds that are both large and dense, that scream with velocity. It should smash a Mech to bits before a machine gun can erode my armor.

Well yes... but I was pointing out even the scenario you cherry picked which would be optimal for the machine gun was sub-optimal.... I don't understand how thats a hard point to grasp.

[Hou]

Ok, not sure if this is common knowledge but I don't know it.

Can critical hits destroy engine slots? For example, is a MG now actually useful against a mech with an XL engine and stripped armor on a side torso?

[Sifright]

Hou, on 19 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Ok, not sure if this is common knowledge but I don't know it.

Can critical hits destroy engine slots? For example, is a MG now actually useful against a mech with an XL engine and stripped armor on a side torso?

no.

Engine crits don't exist in MWO.

[Hou]

Welp, still useless then.

[Sifright]

Hou, on 19 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Welp, still useless then.

yeeeep.

[stjobe]

Sifright, on 19 February 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

no.

Engine crits don't exist in MWO.

In fact, crits don't do much but extra damage (and not even necessarily to the same component!). If they did, the MG would be ever so much more useful. Like for instance if a crit affected the critted component in any way whatsoever except dropping it's health number a bit.

Edited by stjobe, 19 February 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Esplodin]

stjobe, on 19 February 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Let's just hope that the cries of "MG kill stealer!" will echo enough that PGI decides to buff the weapon properly.

Often I'm the last alive, and my ballistic spider has a bit of a killsteal stiffie right now.

[Hou]

Sifright, on 19 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

yeeeep.

Well, I guess in fairytale land where people start wasting loadout on MGs now and where people actually aim their useful weapons differently - the maximum effect I can see this change having is making ammo in the legs slightly more of a liability. A liability, for the record, that will also still impact the MG user for being dumb enough to mount MGs. Hrm, seeing as this impacts all ammo based weaponry yet another point in favor of PPCs all day erryday.

Edited by Hou, 19 February 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Sifright]

Hou, on 19 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Well, I guess in fairytale land where people start wasting loadout on MGs now and where people actually aim their useful weapons differently - the maximum effect I can see this change having is making ammo in the legs slightly more of a liability. A liability, for the record, that will also still impact the MG user for being dumb enough to mount MGs. Hrm, seeing as this impacts all ammo based weaponry yet another point in favor of PPCs all day erryday.

the mg would still have to plink through the armour in the first place and thats usually 30+ right there.

[Hou]

Sifright, on 19 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

the mg would still have to plink through the armour in the first place and thats usually 30+ right there.

Oh, it's not a big point in favor. An MG isn't going to breach armor. But if these things are actually effective at stripping components - a big if - and people actually mount them - another big if - then I guess they're useful for making ammo explode. So one more little point in favor of moar PPCs.

[Trauglodyte]

Very sad. So, they buffed damage against internals but you still do **** against the structure around which the internals are stored. What gain comes of this then?

[Lonestar1771]

Trauglodyte, on 19 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Very sad. So, they buffed damage against internals but you still do **** against the structure around which the internals are stored. What gain comes of this then?

Yeah I was just in a match fighting against a Hunchback that had no CT armor and I just sprayed him with my MGs (my UAC5 were jammed, as usual) to no avail. He was able to run away and get killed by something else.

[MustrumRidcully]

Trauglodyte, on 19 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Very sad. So, they buffed damage against internals but you still do **** against the structure around which the internals are stored. What gain comes of this then?

If you're lucky, something gets destroyed early and the enemy loses a weapon or explodes some ammo.

It isn't much. You will still not help your team much in getting to the point where you can hit internal armour and items. that math is not in your favor.

[Camzron]

Abrahms, on 06 February 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Heavy Machine Guns in real life have no problem harming armor. 50 cals and miniguns easily shred softer targets, even when made from armor. The A-10 Gau Avenger cannon easily rips a main battletank in half. All are high rate of fire, smaller caliber weapons compared to a 120 smoothbore cannon.

Even heavy MG's have difficulty penetrating armour and the GAU cannon is more myth and legend than reality, even with depleted uranium cored ammunition the armour penetrating is listed as;

• 69 mm at 500 meters (6.9cms or 2.7 inches)
  
• 38 mm at 1,000 meters (3.8cms or 1.49 inches)
  
  This is literally laughable even compared to second world war disposable shaped charge weapons, and this is also the reason why ground attack aircraft like the A-10 also carry a ridiculous assortment of laser and radar guided anti tank missiles (for actually destroying tanks)

The point is that the BT universe is a fantasy universe, it's not based on science, technology, reason, good tactics or strategy, so the bottom line is you really don't have to justify any of the changes or balances other than 'it's a game'.
Let's face it, anything the size of a mech fighting a war in this day and age would be annihilated within minutes of contact.
HUGE vertical relatively slow moving target, armour today is largely irrelevant, most modern shoulder fired rockets will penetrate around 2 foot of armour after defeating ERA.

That said, the BT universe contains far more than mechs, MWO is about mechs, BT is not. It contains infantry, aircraft, vehicles both soft and hard, naval vessels of both aquatic and interplanetary designations.
Flame throwers and machineguns are not for anti mech work, they're for targets that flamers and machineguns are designed for.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 19 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

In fact, crits don't do much but extra damage (and not even necessarily to the same component!). If they did, the MG would be ever so much more useful. Like for instance if a crit affected the critted component in any way whatsoever except dropping it's health number a bit.

yeah I miss the days when a single hit was the end of you critical components.Seriously. AC20 gets 10 hits points! What is this D&D? There are two ways to handle Crits. OLD SCHOOL:One hit and it quits. ADVANCED GAME: One hit can cause a variety of negative effects such as gun jam, extra heat, reduced damage. Effects compound until 1/2 the crit slots are damaged then broken.

A weapon needs to do damage appropriate to its size. The Machine Gun is a little to low. double the Per Second damage and buff the cyclic till it is on par with other 0.5 ton weapons. then call it a day.