33 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

MaddMaxx, on 28 May 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

P.S. If allowed, almost everyone will add them them, as soon as it is seen, as a must have.

There is always Hawken. Go play that and get your JJ fix there.

JJs on all mechs have no place in the BT mileu. Irrespective of what some players want. I want greater and more realistic effective range on Ballistic weapons and missiles - I am not holding my breath for that to happen.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 28 May 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Timitum]

JJ for everyone?
I cannot imagine Atlas jumping around (well, to be honest, it did happen in BT universe... but past 3081, so we have clan technology spreaded widely and stuff...).
BUT

From what i read in my old Mechwarrior book (RPG extension for tabletop game) every mech is able to be customized (here we have mech lab). Some mechs designs are better for installing JJ and some are worse. What would be optimum in my opinion?

Disadvantages from having JJ (added weight and space taken) should be different for different chasis. For example:
JJ for 50 ton mech A JJ will take like... 4 tonns and 7 space, and for 50 ton mech B it will take 11 tonns and 10 space.

Why? In short: if you want to jump, you buy jumping mech. If you are forced to jump, and you mech don't like to, you will suffer a bit but nobody will take this oportunity from you. It just cost more (weight and space).

That should keep the balance. Plus, situation where JJ is 'everyone-have' would result in degrade role of terrain.
"yo, scouts, check that canyon for ambush so we can deliver our assault mechs to their base"
"why, man? they can jump over that hill, and we'll have enemies in sight"

[Pvt Dancer]

MaddMaxx, on 28 May 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

My point was that for the argument they cost weight, space etc and one has to give up armor or guns, that is not the case. One drop in Engine rating can save huge weight, or switching to an XL even (50%) for no speed lose in that case.

So if I want to maintain fire power and still have mobility, I could reduce the engine rating 1 notch, save as much as 6-7T's in weight and the JJ's will give me more movement (vertical) freedom than not having them, while running/moving just 10-15 kph less.

Of course the JJ's would best serve a slow mover anyways. The latest addition to the MWO stable, the CTF-3D @70T has JJ's so each weight class will have them it seems.

P.S. If allowed, almost everyone will add them them, as soon as it is seen, as a must have.

Well, your defeating the point of adding jump jets if you end up reducing speed. The point is to increase mobility, not reduce it. The point is folk want to have a medium with jump jets, so lets use a Centurion as an example Mech. 50 ton mech that is a 4/6 speed. It is a rating 200 Nissan Engine that is 8.5 tons. The mechanic is tonnage x walking speed = engine rating. Thus if you want to reduce the engine size, your next legal rating is 150 GM that is a 5.5 ton engine but your speed is now 3/5. You can not knock off a couple of points (say use a 175 rating engine) to save tonnage without a reduction of speed. Maybe those craptastic Mech Warrior games of old allowed it, but hey, if they actually made a /good/ version of Battletech they might still be around to make this game. Instead PGI is, and they are basing it off of Table Top.

If a Beta tester cares to break their NDA or a Dev wants to comment, we can find out which version they went with.

There is also the heat. You generate 1 heat per hex of movement moved. So a mech that is a 6/9/6 jumps 5 hexes, it gains 5 heat. They have stated there are no MW version of jump jets where your effectively flying. But heat can also be used to help balance the jump jets

So, yes, you could put a XL engine in your Centurion or Hunchback to drop a couple of tons for jump jets, but your also going to be dying 3x faster.

PS: No, not everyone will have them, because it /costs/ you something to add them on. It is not equipment you just slap on a mech because you can.

[MaddMaxx]

Pvt Dancer, on 29 May 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

Well, your defeating the point of adding jump jets if you end up reducing speed. The point is to increase mobility, not reduce it. The point is folk want to have a medium with jump jets, so lets use a Centurion as an example Mech. 50 ton mech that is a 4/6 speed. It is a rating 200 Nissan Engine that is 8.5 tons. The mechanic is tonnage x walking speed = engine rating. Thus if you want to reduce the engine size, your next legal rating is 150 GM that is a 5.5 ton engine but your speed is now 3/5. You can not knock off a couple of points (say use a 175 rating engine) to save tonnage without a reduction of speed. Maybe those craptastic Mech Warrior games of old allowed it, but hey, if they actually made a /good/ version of Battletech they might still be around to make this game. Instead PGI is, and they are basing it off of Table Top.

If a Beta tester cares to break their NDA or a Dev wants to comment, we can find out which version they went with.

There is also the heat. You generate 1 heat per hex of movement moved. So a mech that is a 6/9/6 jumps 5 hexes, it gains 5 heat. They have stated there are no MW version of jump jets where your effectively flying. But heat can also be used to help balance the jump jets

So, yes, you could put a XL engine in your Centurion or Hunchback to drop a couple of tons for jump jets, but your also going to be dying 3x faster.

PS: No, not everyone will have them, because it /costs/ you something to add them on. It is not equipment you just slap on a mech because you can.

I can only argue that adding JJ's, no matter what is sacrificed, would never constitute a reduction of mobility. JJ's are the antithesis of mobility...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 29 May 2012 - 06:53 AM.

[Pvt Dancer]

MaddMaxx, on 29 May 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

I can only argue that adding JJ's, no matter what is sacrificed, would never constitute a reduction of mobility. JJ's are the antithesis of mobility...

You reduce speed, you reduce the number of jump jets and thus the distance you can travel with jump jets. Thus your reducing mobility by reducing jump jets if jump jets are the antithesis of mobility.

The balance for jump jets is tonnage, criticals, and heat. The devs have doubled armor, eliminated damage transfer, and made energy weapons DoT. They have also made a hardpoint system and they are effectivily making Jump Jets a hardpoint system by saying you can not have them unless the mech variant your using has them. I don't know how I feel about it, but it may go onto the list of things I don't like.

[Raeven]

MaddMaxx, on 29 May 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

I can only argue that adding JJ's, no matter what is sacrificed, would never constitute a reduction of mobility. JJ's are the antithesis of mobility...

How mobile do you think JJ's are going to make you? From the videos, it doesn't look like you're playing Tribes and flying around all over the place. You make a slow (walking pace) jump with slow rotation.

I don't think JJ's are going to be the superjets you are seeing them as. With reduced speed comes reduced mobility, even with Jump Jets.

Also remember, you increase the amount of heat with Jump Jets, with little tonnage left over to give you extra heatsinks to compensate. So not only are you slowing yourself down, you are increasing the chances of shut downs on yourself.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Picking people out of the skies is a specialty.

[MaddMaxx]

Raeven, on 29 May 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

How mobile do you think JJ's are going to make you? From the videos, it doesn't look like you're playing Tribes and flying around all over the place. You make a slow (walking pace) jump with slow rotation.

I don't think JJ's are going to be the superjets you are seeing them as. With reduced speed comes reduced mobility, even with Jump Jets.

Also remember, you increase the amount of heat with Jump Jets, with little tonnage left over to give you extra heatsinks to compensate. So not only are you slowing yourself down, you are increasing the chances of shut downs on yourself.

No No. No jetting around. The ability to change elevation when the enemy can't, is a huge bonus and has "zero" to do with ground speed. Anyways, you stay on the ground and the JJ'ers will show you (map based ofc) how JJ's will change the dynamic of any match.

P.S. I am arguing "against" the allowed use for all Mechs ffs. I made that very clear early on in this thread. I wish more folks would read the whole GD threads before....

[Sleeping Bear]

I don't see what is so hard to understand about jumpjets and mobility. Speed is not mobility. Mobility is the measure of how well a mech moves. You want an example:

A mech without jumpjets is caught in the open at the base of a cliff with a trio of mechs approaching. To escape the situation, the mech needs to withdraw around the cliff while under fire from the triplet of opponents. The mechwarrior can either withdraw slowly backwards affording his most heavily armored facing to his enemies, or he can turn tail and run leaving his thinly-skinned rear torso open to enemy fire. A similiar mech equipped with jumpjets can make three second vault up and over the cliff with minimal exposure to enemy fire from the three approaching battlemechs.

Now if this doesn't explain what I meant by mobility, then I think that nothing will. The strength of light and medium mechs is speed and mobility. As weight goes up, speed and mobility go down, it's as inevitable as death and taxes. Mainly I'm just griping because the medium mechs represented thus far lack these traits that I believe are the hallmark of light and medium mechs. Where are the Pheonix Hawks, the Shadow Hawks, the Wolverines, Dervishes, Enforcers, Assassins, Chameleons, and the Griffins? If devs can't give me a medium mech that embodies these traits, I would like to have the option of installing jumpjets into one so that I don't feel so constrained.

[Vulpesveritas]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 27 May 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Even where a mech has JJs ie Catapult, not all variants have them ie K2 doesn't.. It seems to be a Dev decision to limit JJs for their own reasons, same as they have limited hardpoints. I just wished we had a jumping medium.

Cicada has a JJ variant available in this time period...

[Rodney28021]

Another thing we will have to try in customization during beta. If full customization is allowed you should not have any problems redesigning your mech barring money and unlockable gear.

[Ktooosiek]

Uh, excuse me? When I was stumbling on sarna.net, I do believe that I have found something about JJ's being able to be mounted on every mech with a special frame for that, and if it's not that there're always Jump Packs, oneshots that could be discarded and needed to be rebought after use

[Revage]

Thing I miss about jump jets was from 2; being able to use them to turn faster, move forwards, backwards, and side-to-side.

That aside.. enabling jump-jets to be placed on mechs wouldn't destroy the value of individual mechs because there's still personal preference, how large a profile the mech presents as a target, what weapon load-out it can support, the potential of its engines, armor, etc. It wouldn't be any more game-breaking than the fact that all mechs can walk and fire their weapons, now they would just be able to jump a little as well if someone wanted to blow tonnage and slots on it.

[Xandre Blackheart]

Jump jets were never chassis restricted in table top. They are equipment and the weight and heat more than offset the manuverability. not to mention that jumping puts you up in the air where everyone can see you and target you. Also there's nothing funnier than watching soemone shut down in midair due to heat.... They should be pretty much available to any ***** that wants to recklessly stick them in a mech without thinking out the role of the design.