84 replies to this topic

[Shadowassualt]

De La Fresniere, on 07 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Everyone knows how it works. No one is confused about that.

The override button not overriding is what's causing some dissonance. Most people familiar with overrides would expect it to power the mech back up again.

Exactly

[Sajuk Kar]

Thontor, on 07 February 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

3C is the only relevant definition. And the MWO override works exactly as it describes.

As for the rest of your post... Seems like you are the one doing the personal attacks...

You can't claim to know what my motivations are for my position, or that my position on the subject would be any different were the implementation different from the start.


I truly believe a warning that your mech is about to shut down is a crutch... And unnecessary.

Same reason 3rd person is a crutch for people who can't keep track of the relative direction of their legs and torso.... Should we have a 3rd person camera too? That was in all previous mechwarrior games.

Are you kidding me? Definition 3C is exactly the opposite of how this new system works and just how the old one did. How can you "neutralize the action of (as an automatic control)" that hasn't even started yet? How this system works now is preemption, not overriding. And you've still failed to provide me with a definition that says "override" can be preventative rather than reactionary. Also, me saying you are making ad hominem attacks against other people is not an ad hominem attack. It's funny that you don't even deny that you're making those attacks. I am 100% factually right and you are 100% factually wrong.

Thontor, on 07 February 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

The only differentech between the "correct mechwarrior system" and what we have in MWO is that in the old system, you are warned when a shutdown is about to occur... In MWO there is no warning... They are both overrides, the only difference is the warning.

No, the difference is that the old system is an override, a overriding of an occurring process, the automatic shutdown. While the new system is a preemption of it. Why you can't understand this I have no idea.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 07 February 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[Sajuk Kar]

Thontor, on 07 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure with every example of similar "override" mechanics in the real world... You override before the thing you are overriding has happened. Because if it happens, its kinda late to override it because it has already happened

That's the complete opposite of how it works in the real world, as I've shown with my definitions. If you want to continue believing that, that's not my problem, but you're wrong.

[Dagger6T6]

if you want to get into the semantics of the word "override" then I guess it doesn't override a shutdown that is in progrees... it just prevents an emminent shutdown from occurring, but in the fact that if your mech gets to 100 on the heat scale then it initiates an automatic shutdown, but if you pressed the O within 5 seconds before that, your mech can reach 100 heat and continue to function BUT not shutdown... therefore automatic shutdown... yeah wait for it... overridden

although you will of course be taking damage if you are in that 100 level for too long.

if you are constantly trying to override or having your mech shutdown, you have much bigger problems than the use of the O and P... your answers await in the mechlab at that point.

Edited by Dagger6T6, 07 February 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Sajuk Kar]

Dagger6T6, on 07 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

if you want to get into the semantics of the word "override" then I guess it doesn't override a shutdown that is in progrees... it just prevents an emminent shutdown from occurring,

Exactly. This new system is preemption, not an override. I just find it funny that first defenders of the new system say is an override, and then when they get proven wrong with evidence, they say it's just "semantics"

Dagger6T6, on 07 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

but in the fact that if your mech gets to 100 on the heat scale then it initiates an automatic shutdown, but if you pressed the O within 5 seconds before that, your mech can reach 100 heat and continue to function BUT not shutdown... therefore automatic shutdown... yeah wait for it... overridden

You just admitted that's not what an override is.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

before it was switched to what it is now, you would override the shutdown sequence half way through shutting down... so you half way shut down and half way start up... I always thought it was pretty lame like that. Now, all you have to do is if you're going to overheat you press override, and if you overheat within 5 seconds you will no longer shut down at all, you just take internal damage to a random component i believe, and the damage aspect has always been part of override.

I don't see what the fuss is about, it's a much more fluid system I'll tell ya that. After watching your video I can tell you that the exact same thing happens in MW:O and it looks a million times better in my stalker or awesome. You complain about not knowing how much heat you generate and the stress of combat, aaah QQ i don't know when I'm going to overheat 'cos the stress of combat and i have no clue how much heat i generate i don't know if 5 seconds have passes or not waaa waaaa...

In defense of the new system and those who developed it!:

[MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone]

its buged, sometimes when you pres overide, it doesnt do anything, press P and overide turns of, mech twitches on and of for 3 times before it goes back into battle.
i thought it was jjust me then i saw it hapen to others aswel

[Sajuk Kar]

Thontor, on 07 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

i think you are misunderstanding the definition.

The automatic action is shutdown at 100%, pressing O overrides this action so when you reach 100% heat you don't shut down.

An override preventing something from happening is still an override.

No you are defiantly misunderstanding the definition. Which makes no sense to me, seeing that is so simple. Stopping something before it happens is preemption, changing the action of something once it is in motion is an override. Your first sentence is how the old system worked, it is not how the new one works. The new one is a preemption.

Thontor, on 07 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

It really sounds to me like you just like having a crutch to let you know when to press O, rather than leaning when to press it without he warning.

There you go with the ad hominem attack again. It's crazy that you continue with them even after I've called you out on it. Do you not understand that ad hominem does not equal argument? Things like evidence and logic do, things I've provided in abundance and you've ignored. I almost never overheat and try to avoid it as much as possible, and only do it in crucial situation. That being said, I still think this new system is stupid.That's why a personal attack is a logical fallacy and not an argument for something.

[Dagger6T6]

Sajuk Kar, on 07 February 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Exactly. This new system is preemption, not an override. I just find it funny that first defenders of the new system say is an override, and then when they get proven wrong with evidence, they say it's just "semantics"



You just admitted that's not what an override is.

actually I don't really care one way or the other nor am i hear to argue one side or the other... because I know how the system works, and I can employ it properly and remain effective on the battlefield.

so override shutdown... override automatic shutdown... override initiation of shutdown... whatever... yes that is all semantics. It was written by Canadians, they don't speak 'Merican I guess. but +1 internets to you if you feel that I have been "proven" wrong by the lofty court that is You.

I know... let's hook up the Xbox or Playstation controller to the PC then we can have an O, X, square, triangle, or an A, B pop up when something needs to be overridden or premptively forced to not occur, which apparently can never in no way shape or form by interpreted as override.

Edited by Dagger6T6, 07 February 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Sable Dove]

If you're going to argue semantics, then at least get it right. The override does exactly what it should; it overrides the shutdown trigger.

When you overheat without overriding, the trigger shuts down your mech. You can 'override' being shut down, but that's just called powering your mech back up.

In a sense, you've actually got two separate overrides. The one labeled 'override,' which overrides the trigger, as it should, and the one that's simply a forced start-up, which could be argued to override the shutdown, but really it's just doing a forced start-up while overriding the trigger that would have prevented the startup.

If you want to be obtuse, yes, you could argue that you're overriding the shutdown by starting back up, but reasonably speaking, what you're overriding is the trip condition. So no, hitting override after you are shut down should not automatically un-shut-down (which is different from starting up, mind you) your mech. That's not how any sort of engine works.

Here's a thought that requires no patching or anything to make the override system significantly more usable: rebind override to LShift. Far easier to use in combat, which is where you're going to be using it.

[Dagger6T6]

save us from ourselves, Bill! hurry time is running out!

[Budor]

One thing that would actually make this even better is ANY sort of clue that you have initiated a power up while being shut down THE SECOND you press the power up key (P). Now it can feel like it does nothing because it takes some time...

[Deathlike]

The override system makes a lot of sense, but I think it doesn't feel the same as many of the MW titles (like MW2, MW3, or MW4). It's simply different.

The system as currently constructed is simple:

100% or more heat = immediate shutdown

Override must be applied to avoid immediate shutdown @ 100% heat

80% is where the "Heat Level Critical" is when you get a audiovisual cue

Overriding shutdown has a audiovisual cue.

So, if you are know you are going to overheat and potentially hit 100% heat, just override and the fire. It's not that complicated. Anyone using a lot of energy weapons (and missiles will realize this).

What a lot of people are used to is that they are reach or are already past 100% and wanting to override the shutdown... hoping that their cooling system would save them.

In some ways, the way it is implemented, they are kinda doing you a favor... favoring avoiding damage by internal explosion destruction... despite potentially be an easy target in combat (although, I've seen targets avoid me while shutdown, since IFF is not visible unless you have BAP). Very likely, the heat scale in this game would very likely make you take some internal damage if it was implemented the way most are used to. I think MW2 is closest to this effect (but you don't take damage outside your ammo explosion and/or potentially die outright via the engine, with random/luck involved).

Anyways, when you override the auto-shutdown, manually shutting down is the same as normal. You won't wake up until you manually power up.

I think you're still able to power up after a forced shutdown (I don't wait for the auto-power up), so you can still do that...

Anyways... if you know you will overheat, just override and fire. This is a simple non-issue.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 February 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[AndyHill]

I also get some key press lag at times so feedback of the presses would be appreciated.

Bad usability as a gameplay mechanic doesn't usually work, because there are ways around it (map o to all firing keys to keep from ever shutting down) and I'm not convinced that's the intention. Although I'm really puzzled about why this kind of approach was taken, don't they actually have a delay in accepting power up / down keypresses so that people wouldn't accidentally end up in the wrong state?

Especially since the real answer is so mind-bogglingly simple: one key shuts down your 'mech and another one powers it up or prevents the shutdown from happening. If you want to go deeper, add a key to toggle automatic shutdown entirely on and off.

I'm totally puzzled by this design and I don't even use the override or restart when I shut down.

Edited by AndyHill, 07 February 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

I don't like the new override system. It's inconsistent and awkward.

I just assumed it was a bug. If it's intentionally this stupid...for shame.

Also, I don't get a vocal cue from Betty when I press override...so I have no idea if the overide has even been initiated.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 07 February 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Deathlike, on 07 February 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

The override system makes a lot of sense, but I think it doesn't feel the same as many of the MW titles (like MW2, MW3, or MW4). It's simply different.

The system as currently constructed is simple:

100% or more heat = immediate shutdown

Override must be applied to avoid immediate shutdown @ 100% heat

80% is where the "Heat Level Critical" is when you get a audiovisual cue

Overriding shutdown has a audiovisual cue.

So, if you are know you are going to overheat and potentially hit 100% heat, just override and the fire. It's not that complicated. Anyone using a lot of energy weapons (and missiles will realize this).

What a lot of people are used to is that they are reach or are already past 100% and wanting to override the shutdown... hoping that their cooling system would save them.

In some ways, the way it is implemented, they are kinda doing you a favor... favoring avoiding damage by internal explosion destruction... despite potentially be an easy target in combat (although, I've seen targets avoid me while shutdown, since IFF is not visible unless you have BAP). Very likely, the heat scale in this game would very likely make you take some internal damage if it was implemented the way most are used to. I think MW2 is closest to this effect (but you don't take damage outside your ammo explosion and/or potentially die outright via the engine, with random/luck involved).

Anyways, when you override the auto-shutdown, manually shutting down is the same as normal. You won't wake up until you manually power up.

I think you're still able to power up after a forced shutdown (I don't wait for the auto-power up), so you can still do that...

Anyways... if you know you will overheat, just override and fire. This is a simple non-issue.

Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to try that out.

[liku]

If you need some practice i advice you fit as many er ppc or erlaser you can. You can even pop off one or two dhs...but the best way..while cost inneffective is to downgrade tol shs fit the lowest possible xl engine and fill the tonage with ammo.
Without needing a costy assault you will enjoy overheating and quickly understand the situational avantage when to use override.

[Red squirrel]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 06 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

too many ppl were qqing that you COULD override shutdown (like in all other MW titles) so it got nerfed. Just like everything else anyone QQs en masse about

The problem is that the system is completely non functional.
I like the idea for different keys for power up/down.

More than once now have I powered up after overheating in the midst of a brawl (O key did not work)
just to power down again and get killed !?

SRZLY? The system worked quite well but every patch it gets worse.....

[Dreamslave]

I love the new system. Being able to hit "O" to go "above" 100% heat and remain active allows a great many advantages to be had. Heat management is a big player in this game folks, if you can't manage your heat, go back to the Mech Lab until you figure something else out, because obviously that build isn't working for ya.

[kuangmk11]

the problem is when I get into a situation where I need to override I don't get the message. I am overheating, damage is critical, missiles are coming, now where is that override message? The timer makes it worse because when the **** hits the fan I'd rather meltdown than shutdown and the stupid thing keeps resetting. If this were "real" I would rip the little black box out, throw it out the hatch and run over it with my Atlas.

It should work both ways and it should be a toggle. press "o" once at the beginning = no auto shutdown, you just take the damage. if you are shutting down "o" brings you back up with the damage.