84 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I'm pretty sure you can override at any heat #, outside of 100%. Although... I think you can still do it if you keep hitting 'o' while the heat override is nearly ending and still overheating past 100%, with major risks involved with that. You can still be forced to shutdown if the override has ended and are at 100%+ heat.

The override button at this point is not a panic button for overheating. It's like a fire drill test and we would like to not actually have the fire trucks come out type of button. Maybe you're running fireworks indoors (well, maybe Chinese firecrackers within a trashcan) and you don't want the fire alarms going off. This is the same thing the system is doing here.

Edit: Added a better comparison

Edited by Deathlike, 07 February 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[cyberFluke]

I'll admit, I got bored of reading people's sensibly put issues with the current implementation, and a certain other member defending it to the death.

Simple fact of the matter is that the current implementation is *not* an override, you are disabling the auto-shutdown sequence in advance. The difference is a matter of semantics. If it was an override, hitting "o" mid shutdown would stop the sequence and reverse it, no matter the heat levels and damage caused. This is how I remember it working in previous MW titles, and is the true meaning of an override.

In my opinion, the current system is an vastly overcomplicated mess. An override that doesn't is a pointless waste of my time. The ability to disable the auto shutdown is cool, but it should be a toggle and it should not replace the actual override.

Before you reply with some smart-arse comment about my heat management skills, I rarely overheat and have *never* used the override outside of testing.

[Dock Steward]

Ours Mechs have a feature called Automatic Shutdown, which is in place to avoid blowing up from too much heat. It is always in effect. Always. When I hit "O" it overrides this feature. It is a reaction to a feature which is always turned on. It's not preemptive to hit "O," it is an override because it is telling the Automatic Shutdown system to go away for 5 seconds. Look at it this way, you're not overriding the shutdown, you're overriding the automatic shutdown program. Helpful?

That being said, I don't like the new system. I am also not use to the new system yet and will probably not have a major issue with it once I do become accustomed to it. For now though, it feels counter-intuitive.

Edited by Dock Steward, 08 February 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Penance]

Taemien, on 06 February 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Works the same way. When betty goes "Heat Level Critical" hit the override. The only difference is the gauge.

I think this is part of the issue, there is a very small window to actually prevent it, nor is that made window clear. I find myself shutting down slightly more often now. prior I'd override.

The patch notes don't state when to press O. I usually press the key just as my mech starts to slump and power down. the override doesn't appear to work as the mech doesn't power up.

[Havyek]

Sajuk Kar, on 07 February 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Once again, complete lie. In the old system, the correct mechwarrior system, when your heat goes above 100%, the automatic shutdown system starts, and then you have to override it to not shut down. Hence the term "override" "What you people are asking for is something to STOP the automatic shutdown." Ya, OVERRIDE IT. How are you people this dumb? In the current system the o key preempts a shutdown, it doesn't override it. And how I explained before the word override has never meant anything about preemption.

You're one of those who voted YES to 3rd person view aren't you?

Guess what OVERRIDE AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN does? It OVERRIDES THE AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN.
So when you get the warning that your heat level is critical, I.e. you are about to automatically shutdown, you OVERRIDE THE AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN.

Once you hit 120% heat, it's too late. The automatic shutdown has started and your going to have a bad time .

Your reading comprehension and heat management problems are up to you to fix, not PGI.

Edited by BDU Havoc, 08 February 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

+1 for this.

Make the override essentially just be a disabling of the safety measures.

Sadly the QQ'ing of accidentally hitting the "O" key, instead of its neighbor the "P" key and then some moments later blowing yourself up would be very loud.

You know how most just don't like to have to take responsibility for them selves or their ride. Just give em PEW PEW PEW and balls to the walls kinda stuff...

P.S. How does one "Override" a powered down system again? Turn off your car, press the gas pedal. What happens? Turn it back on, then try the gas pedal again.... Logic FTL (Holy Smokes Batman)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 February 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Volume]

kuangmk11, on 06 February 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

So now people just macro in "O" to all their fire keys like with the old U-AC un-jam sequence

Yep.

Or a toggle macro that just presses O every 3 seconds or so. Because this is Macro-warrior online. Need a separate toggle macro for Tag, a separate toggle macro to use an U/AC5 properly (even still, but thank god it's not contra code anymore). Quite poor design.

[Sajuk Kar]

BDU Havoc, on 08 February 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

You're one of those who voted YES to 3rd person view aren't you?

Guess what OVERRIDE AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN does? It OVERRIDES THE AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN.
So when you get the warning that your heat level is critical, I.e. you are about to automatically shutdown, you OVERRIDE THE AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN.

Once you hit 120% heat, it's too late. The automatic shutdown has started and your going to have a bad time .

Your reading comprehension and heat management problems are up to you to fix, not PGI.

Actually if you read the "Regarding 3rd person" thread, you would see that I'm really against it, and made numerous post explaining why it is a bad idea. Mainly because it opens the door for a lot of other things that don't make sense in the game, but are just put in to make it easier or something, like collectable powerups, regenerating health, or respawing during a match with the same mech, etc. The old override system was NOT like 3rd person would be in this game, because it had a mechanical explanation. I have not seen people like You, Thontor, and all the other people in this thread defending this new system, provide a SINGLE actual argument based on evidence or logic as to why this new system is better than the old one. Just ad hominem attacks against other players such as the old system "was a crutch" and that people complaining about the new system "can't handle their heat". Such as Thontor first stating that there is nothing in the definition of "override" that says it has to be reactionary rather than preemptive, then me posting numerous definition that contradict exactly that, but then, he, never posting any definition himself, using my definition to tell me that I "misunderstood it" and it actually means 180 degrees from it literally meaning. And then continuing to make ad hominem attacks against me and other players. So my advice to you is:
1. Learn to read, so you can understand definitions of words that are written in plain English, and then you might understand what the word override means.
2. Learn to make arguments that are based on logic and evidence. Not ad hominem attacks against your opponent.
3. Learn that ad hominems, like the ones in your first and last sentences, do not constitute arguments for or against something, and only things like logic and evidence do.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 09 February 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Havyek]

Sajuk Kar, on 09 February 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Actually if you read the "Regarding 3rd person" thread, you would see that I'm really against it, and made numerous post explaining why it is a bad idea. Mainly because it opens the door for a lot of other things that don't make sense in the game, but are just put in to make it easier or something, like collectable powerups, regenerating health, or respawing during a match with the same mech, etc. The old override system was NOT like 3rd person would be in this game, because it had a mechanical explanation. I have not seen people like You, Thontor, and all the other people in this thread defending this new system, provide a SINGLE actual argument based on evidence or logic as to why this new system is better than the old one. Just ad hominem attacks against other players such as the old system "was a crutch" and that people complaining about the new system "can't handle their heat". Such as Thontor first stating that there is nothing in the definition of "override" that says it has to be reactionary rather than preemptive, then me posting numerous definition that contradict exactly that, but then, he, never posting any definition himself, using my definition to tell me that I "misunderstood it" and it actually means 180 degrees from it literally meaning. And then continuing to make ad hominem attacks against me and other players. So my advice to you is:
1. Learn to read, so you can understand definitions of words that are written in plain English, and then you might understand what the word override means.
2. Learn to make arguments that are based on logic and evidence. Not ad hominem attacks against your opponent.
3. Learn that ad hominems, like the ones in your first and last sentences, do not constitute arguments for or against something, and only things like logic and evidence do.

You can use "ad hominem" as often as you'd like, it still doesn't prove that you are correct because you interpreted a dictionary definition a certain way.

You still can't grasp what the override does can you?
The AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN is in place to prevent you from cooking your 'Mech once you reach 100% heat. Meaning that 100% is the MAXIMUM heat threshold you can reach before shutting down.

So guess what? Your 'Mech AUTOMATICALLY shuts down at 100% heat. Gues what the overrides does? IT OVERRIDES THE AUTOMATIC SHUTDOWN. Meaning that it temporarily disables the automatic shutdown. Once the automatic shutdown starts, you want a mechanism to STOP it, not to OVERRIDE it.

It's like trying to un-deploy your airbags in a car accident while they are in the middle of deploying. OVERRIDING them turns them off so that they WON'T deploy, not so that they'll STOP deploying.

This is the last post I'll make on the subject. I've been reading these threads out loud to my dog, and even he's starting to understand.

[FrostPaw]

If I want to override the fail safe in the mech, I should only need to press the button once. Having to remember to keep pressing it to prevent shutdowns which persist when overheating is excessive.

[Deathlike]

There's a reason why overrides are temporary, not semi-permanent as some people would like. Otherwise safeguards for real systems need to be online at all times until we hit the "magical button" to temporarily disable them... usually, for controlled reasons.

Of course we don't actually die in these games, but to some degree, you can't have a permanent override for a safeguard. You would be complaining to the real things that would occur like the BP oil spill or even the nuclear reactors in Japan (I forget where). This is a semi-realistic take on war-machines that very likely will overheat and sometimes people will intentional risk dying if they think they can survive. This override feature is no different and should NEVER operate in a toggle or other means. Perhaps they should switch the old style most are used to, then we'll just shift to whining at how the scaled heat system is not what you like.

[AndyHill]

I don't think the meaning of the word toggle is very relevant in a user interface discussion, but in fact many toggles in modern weapon systems are permanent. You don't have to remove the safety of a gun before every shot and the same goes for the master arm in most combat vehicles. Perhaps more relevant to the issue at hand, when you push through the physical stops in a combat helo's throttle for emergency power, it's available to you for the rest of the flight (and the mechanic will hate you for it). Some modern aircraft also have for example automatic throttle controls that prevent you from flooding the engine etc. and again these have toggle overrides, same goes for dampers and for example the manual mode for bypassing the hydraulics systems in an A-10 is a toggle.

But again, I don't think this is really relevant to the discussion, to me it's a simple matter of usability and the current system is overly cumbersome for its purpose.

Edited by AndyHill, 09 February 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Deathlike]

I think the current system is a little annoying, where you do have to hit override before firing some serious heat. On the other hand, it's not really that complicated.

The power up and power down aspects are probably more annoying as queuing simply makes no sense for stuff that should be relatively instant or near instant.

The way it some people want does not make any sense at all (outside of the classic method) where some would like to push a button and forget overheating exists... especially that there's no actual penalty for overheating (outside of the extreme overheat cases like ammo explosions and eventual engine death) like slowdowns or anything of that sort. You simply don't turn off safeties on something that generates heat and power for an entire day, let alone the short amount of time we play in a match. There are plenty of reasons to turn off the safeties on stuff, but these things are made to be temporary and not permanent.

[Moorecroft]

Megachromulent, on 06 February 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

That is exactly what we have now, and it doesn't make any sense. Every other game and system use the override when you are SHUTTING DOWN, not _before_.

No it isn't... I'm suggesting an on/off toggle, not a timer.

- Currently the override only actual overrides shutdown for 5 seconds after you press it. This is foolish.

- I want it to just be a 'never shut my god damned mech down' button. For great justice.

[Sajuk Kar]

Synther, on 07 February 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

But that's just ********. Why would you override something that hasn't even happened yet? The definition of override would be to stop the automated process. If the process hasn't been initiated yet, there's nothing to override! That's just stupid.

Thontor, on 07 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure with every example of similar "override" mechanics in the real world... You override before the thing you are overriding has happened. Because if it happens, its kinda late to override it because it has already happened

Here is an example of the word "override" that has nothing to do with technology. In the United States, the way a bill becomes law, is it has to be passed by both houses of Congress, and then it goes to the President, who can either sign it into law, or veto it and return it to the Congress. If he vetoes it, it can still become law if both houses of congress vote in a two thirds majority for it. This has been called for a long time a "congressional override". Basically, the President has to act by vetoing the bill, and only then can the congress act by voting to override the veto. The Congress can not pass a bill twice to override a Presidential veto in advance. Just as the President cannot veto a bill, which itself is a kind of override, before a bill is even passed. The person you were responding to with that comment is completely correct, an override, when that word is used correctly, is always reactionary not preemptive as you claim. And if you and other people would like to keep arguing that, you're gonna have to provide some real world examples.

Now considering the example of the congressional override, which of the override systems that we've had and have in this game sounds more like that? The old one, where the emergency shutdown would start and try to shutdown your mech, and by pressing the o key, you could override that action and not shutdown. Or the new system, in which you press the o key, and you preempt the action of the emergency shutdown from shutting down your mech. The correct answer is the first one, because it is reactionary, which is the correct usage of the word override, while the second is preemptive, which is not. If way back when the override emergency shutdown was first put into a pc mechwarrior game, if it worked like this new one does, the person designing it probably would never have called it an override, he probably would have called it something else, like a delay or something.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 11 February 2013 - 04:20 AM.

[Dagger6T6]

Did someone say Bill?

Edited by Dagger6T6, 11 February 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[Havyek]

BDU Havoc, on 09 February 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

It's like trying to un-deploy your airbags in a car accident while they are in the middle of deploying. OVERRIDING them turns them off so that they WON'T deploy, not so that they'll STOP deploying.

[Pr8Dator]

Please bring back the old overheat system... this system is crappy beyond description!

[pistolero]

Pr8Dator, on 11 February 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Please bring back the old overheat system... this system is crappy beyond description!

yes !!!

why was a good working gamesystem modified and replaced by an extremly bad system at all ???

[Rahnu]

I am not a fan of this system as it currently stands.

The worst part about it is that you CANNOT actually activate the mech once it has shut down; you HAVE to wait for the cooldown to be over and all pressing P does is make you shutdown again after your mech cools off, which is incredibly unintuitive and needs to be fixed.

The other mech games simply let you power back on as soon as you press the override key; why change what isn't broken?