440 replies to this topic

[Judgment McGodly]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

BALANCED!

Have a macro, Norris

Edited by Judgment McGodly, 06 February 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[Norris J Packard]

Your link is broken.

[Bishop Steiner]

Brilig, on 06 February 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

A lot of good points on both sides. Like most of you I have to agree that most Catapult builds are only really OP if you are playing to their strengths.

I also still see some pretty legitimate concerns over the Catapult being able to pull of the role off assault brawler a little too easily.

Torso twist reduction, and a tweak to SRM's really may be in order. There are a ton of things that could be done to SRMs to make them less OP when boated in a major fashion. Damage reduction, or increased spread. Maybe increasing the distance between each group of SRM being fired from a single location. Instead of an 18 missile blob, have three distinct group of 6 SRMs.

Not entirely unreasonable. Though even if it can approximate the firepower of an assault for a short time, I still point out the range (or lack there of) and the fact the mech certainly doesn't have the armor of an assault.

Hard part is that direct nerfs to weapons punish the designs that don't boat. Direct nerfs to mechs ALSO punish the designs that don't boat. (For instance the GaussAPult panic has always been much ado about nothing... sometimes they land a lucky headshot (moreso before head hitboxes got addressed) but generally, they only truly did their damage if ignored. Once people started making them a priority.. not so much an issue. But nerfs meant to limit them, or dual AC/20s also neuter the people who run them with largely stock weapons.)

I do like the idea of "cluster separation you mention though, as it doesn't directly nerf the weapon (as using 1 or 2 won't be affected much, if at all) and it doesn't remove a unit's ability to specialize, either.

[Brilig]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

No ****, you play to your build's strengths!? What a tactical genius you are. DHB confirmed for best gold drop in the game!

Oh, wait. You're terrible, and you don't know how to argue.

I've been driving boomcats since before you even knew you could do this. You probably didn't even know jets let you turn 180 in no time at all in the air until it was said in this thread.

The problem isn't SRMs. SRMs are fine. They're good for their intended purpose. Catapults are the problem, because you can DBZ control yourself in the air, and aim everywhere.

The internet tough guy stuff is cute. Really super cute.

I managed to agree with you in the post. It appears you didn't really read it.

I think your idea for limiting torso twist is a good one. Though I think there is more to the Catapults success than just it's maneuverability.

SRMs are pretty powerful when boated, and I think a mild nerf to them would help with more than just the Catapult build. But since we are talking about Catapults here I didn't mention how every other mech in the game with missile slots tends to come with as many SRMs as you can cram in there.

And the point was about not playing to the enemy Catapults strengths. They aren't that dangerous unless you get caught* at face hugging distance.

Edit: Used the wrong word.

Edited by Brilig, 06 February 2013 - 11:47 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

Not entirely unreasonable. Though even if it can approximate the firepower of an assault for a short time, I still point out the range (or lack there of) and the fact the mech certainly doesn't have the armor of an assault.

Hard part is that direct nerfs to weapons punish the designs that don't boat. Direct nerfs to mechs ALSO punish the designs that don't boat. (For instance the GaussAPult panic has always been much ado about nothing... sometimes they land a lucky headshot (moreso before head hitboxes got addressed) but generally, they only truly did their damage if ignored. Once people started making them a priority.. not so much an issue. But nerfs meant to limit them, or dual AC/20s also neuter the people who run them with largely stock weapons.)

I do like the idea of "cluster separation you mention though, as it doesn't directly nerf the weapon (as using 1 or 2 won't be affected much, if at all) and it doesn't remove a unit's ability to specialize, either.

Cats have better durability than atlases, because of their shape, speed, jets, and sides you can only touch when they feel like letting you.

Stop typing. You're embarrassing.

[Adrienne Vorton]

valkyrie, on 06 February 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

And in that time we've seen tweaks to heat, armor, gauss rifles, MISSILE, lasers...everything except the Catapult itself, but the Catapult remains at the top of the food chain.

top of the foodchain? really not... it´s like a turtle with carnivore jaws... if you let it come close enough to let it bite you...well it might hurt... i get killed way more often by phracts, atlases, jenners, ravens, commandos than by a cat... that happens too, but really not more often than other mechs... i am pretty sure that many of those QQing about the cats are those Atlas pilots who invite them for breakfast...

[Johnny Reb]

I agree both the A1 and K2 make scarey wep platforms. They still have boundaries that are exploitable. However, nerf the **** out of them I don't like the kats anyway!

edit: I would say lets only use small lasers and not customize at all! Oh, said months ago? Oh, this post post was made months ago yay I went back in time!

edit 2: Now where is my fast 9small laser Hucnh at 150k/h?

Edited by Johnny Reb, 06 February 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[DarklightCA]

This complaining needs to stop, just because you are killed by something more then others or because a specific mech/build is popular DOES NOT mean its overpowered or needs to be downgraded.

As per your mention of the A1 catapult, the basis of it is that it fields 6 missle points and the more popular build for that now is the 6 SRM6's. This is a powerful build with a 90 alpha strike but is in no means overpowered. The A1 catapult is a extremely fragile mech and ALL six of those missle points are located on fragile LARGE mickey mouse ears on the top right and left of the mech. It's literally impossible to miss shots to hit them and when they are gone, the A1 is completely disarmed. As well it comes with a extremely large cockpit that is more then easy to headshot. To pack all that punch and get the necessary speed to get in and out of combat fast enough, pretty much all A1's require XL engines.

The A1 sacrafices survivability for good damage output. If you took away its ability to deal quick damage, it would just be a large fragile mech with no use. As with pretty much most of the mechs and builds that have gotten a downgrade, the problem is not with the builds themselves but pilots inability to figure out how to counter them. Though I am sure its much easier to just go on the forums and complain about the builds/mechs then actually take the time to figure out what could counter them and what those mechs/builds weak spots are.

[Vassago Rain]

Brilig, on 06 February 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

The internet tough guy stuff is cute. Really super cute.

I managed to agree with you in the post. It appears you didn't really read it.

I think your idea for limiting torso twist is a good one. Though I think there is more to the Catapults success than just it's maneuverability.

SRMs are pretty powerful when boated, and I think a mild nerf to them would help with more than just the Catapult build. But since we are talking about Catapults here I didn't mention how every other mech in the game with missile slots tends to come with as many SRMs as you can cram in there.

And the point was about not playing to the enemy Catapults strengths. They aren't that dangerous unless you get got at face hugging distance.

If people don't play to something's strength, they're doing it wrong, and need to learn. This is especially true in a strictly PvP game, like MWO.

SRM nerf to 'get' at the cats will only kill the weapon for other mechs, and if SRMs are bad, people go to K2s instead. Do you understand that the problem is strictly the cat, and not the weapons, at all?

DemonicD3, on 06 February 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

This complaining needs to stop, just because you are killed by something more then others or because a specific mech/build is popular DOES NOT mean its overpowered or needs to be downgraded.

As per your mention of the A1 catapult, the basis of it is that it fields 6 missle points and the more popular build for that now is the 6 SRM6's. This is a powerful build with a 90 alpha strike but is in no means overpowered. The A1 catapult is a extremely fragile mech and ALL six of those missle points are located on fragile LARGE mickey mouse ears on the top right and left of the mech. It's literally impossible to miss shots to hit them and when they are gone, the A1 is completely disarmed. As well it comes with a extremely large cockpit that is more then easy to headshot. To pack all that punch and get the necessary speed to get in and out of combat fast enough, pretty much all A1's require XL engines.

The A1 sacrafices survivability for good damage output. If you took away its ability to deal quick damage, it would just be a large fragile mech with no use. As with pretty much most of the mechs and builds that have gotten a downgrade, the problem is not with the builds themselves but pilots inability to figure out how to counter them. Though I am sure its much easier to just go on the forums and complain about the builds/mechs then actually take the time to figure out what could counter them and what those mechs/builds weak spots are.

It improves durability. You people need to shut up, and just play the game.

Stop typing in the forum. It's so obvious most of you don't know what you're talking about, as demonstrated by almost every single post in this thread.

[Solis Obscuri]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

Hard part is that direct nerfs to weapons punish the designs that don't boat.  Direct nerfs to mechs ALSO punish the designs that don't boat.  (For instance the GaussAPult panic has always been much ado about nothing... sometimes they land a lucky headshot (moreso before head hitboxes got addressed) but generally, they only truly did their damage if ignored.  Once people started making them a priority.. not so much an issue.  But nerfs meant to limit them, or dual AC/20s also neuter the people who run them with largely stock weapons.)

I do like the idea of "cluster separation  you mention though, as it doesn't directly nerf the weapon (as using 1 or 2 won't be affected much, if at all) and it doesn't remove a unit's ability to specialize, either.

True about direct nerfs to weapons. In the case of SRMs (and SSRMs and LRMs) I think that getting the scatter pattern/density just right is going to take some time. But it's certainly come pretty far since the first runs I saw back in CB, so I expect it'll get there.

[M0oP0o]

What controversy? This is nothing new and no one had an issue with splatcats when Guass/LRMs/SSRMs/MLS/SLS/Lightmechs where the flavor of the month. The A1 is a missile based mech, sorry it works as intended?

Edited by M0oP0o, 06 February 2013 - 11:52 PM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

BALANCED!

what we see here is #1: a classical example for "why you never should stop moving in a battletech based game" those 2 would have been dead a few seconds later anyway, no matter whom they faced... this video proves nothing, but the fact that stupidity gets punished...

[M0oP0o]

Adrienne Vorton, on 06 February 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

what we see here is #1: a classical example for "why you never should stop moving in a battletech based game" those 2 would have been dead a few seconds later anyway, no matter whom they faced... this video proves nothing, but the fact that stupidity gets punished...

You could also have the same video with load outs on many heavy and assault mechs. Would people be calling for nerfing the awesome if a video showed up showing it kicking ***? (oh wait, they have one like that for pretty baby....)

[Johnny Reb]

M0oP0o, on 06 February 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

You could also have the same video with load outs on many heavy and assault mechs. Would people be calling for nerfing the awesome if a video showed up showing it kicking ***? (oh wait, they have one like that for pretty baby....)

Small lasers for all!

edit: maybe tag is ok but no LRMS! LRMs hurt ppl and that is not acceptable! Go America!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 07 February 2013 - 12:01 AM.

[Eddrick]

M0oP0o, on 06 February 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

What controversy? This is nothing new and no one had an issue with splatcats when Guass/LRMs/SSRMs/MLS/SLS/Lightmechs where the flavor of the month. The A1 is a missile based mech, sorry it works as intended?

Good point.

It's pointless to argue with people that have already made up thier minds, anyway.

[Vassago Rain]

I guess the cent should have learned how to DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODGE.

Or use the mystical shield arm. Because the missiles that didn't ruin his arm wouldn't have ruined the side torso, probably to the point where his center would have gotten very hurt, and valk would have jetted away onto the roof, spun 180 into the air, and killed him with another perfect shot.

It's not like anyone in here plays with the mech, or anything.

[Bishop Steiner]

DemonicD3, on 06 February 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

This complaining needs to stop, just because you are killed by something more then others or because a specific mech/build is popular DOES NOT mean its overpowered or needs to be downgraded.

As per your mention of the A1 catapult, the basis of it is that it fields 6 missle points and the more popular build for that now is the 6 SRM6's. This is a powerful build with a 90 alpha strike but is in no means overpowered. The A1 catapult is a extremely fragile mech and ALL six of those missle points are located on fragile LARGE mickey mouse ears on the top right and left of the mech. It's literally impossible to miss shots to hit them and when they are gone, the A1 is completely disarmed. As well it comes with a extremely large cockpit that is more then easy to headshot. To pack all that punch and get the necessary speed to get in and out of combat fast enough, pretty much all A1's require XL engines.

The A1 sacrafices survivability for good damage output. If you took away its ability to deal quick damage, it would just be a large fragile mech with no use. As with pretty much most of the mechs and builds that have gotten a downgrade, the problem is not with the builds themselves but pilots inability to figure out how to counter them. Though I am sure its much easier to just go on the forums and complain about the builds/mechs then actually take the time to figure out what could counter them and what those mechs/builds weak spots are.

You forgot to mention that even losing ONE ear essentially makes the big bad BoomCat not so big and bad anymore. 2 Dual Gauss Volleys, and off goes ear. 2-3 seconds sustained AC fire from a Dakkaphract? Same. Ditto PPC mugging from Stalkers and Awesomes.

Gotta say their videos of Pug Harvesting are a nice propaganda touch, but not much else. Look, we found evidence of weapons of mass destruction! (Where have I heard that before.....?) Folks, if you haven't figured it out by now, feeding the trolls is a waste of time.

[Vechs]

Hmmmm.

I voted "no", because I don't think PGI should rush into things. Keep in mind that the current maps are apparently considered "small" and they favor certain builds more than others.

I think the Guass K2 is fine. I've just started running it the last week or so, and it's a great sniper, but it is very fragile. As long as I can shoot without getting return fire, it's great. But when someone notices me, I have to back off. Good alphas, but not that great sustained DPS. So just trading hits with enemies is a great way to die.

I tried the AC20 K2 for a few rounds, and was not impressed with it. Standard engine, ammo issues, crappy range... meh.

SRM6 A1 is really powerful at 100m. It's pretty good at 200m. Anything beyond that and it is worthless. Sure you can take it for a spin and wreck PUGs with it, but that's because PUGs are terrible, and the 4-man crews I run with on TS wreck PUGs with any mech. In a more competitive environment (read: where the enemy team are not pants-on-head-stupid), I'm not sure the A1 is OP. I've shot off the missile boxes, and had mine shot off while running the A1 with/against more organized groups. They're pretty fragile. I am more concerned with a Stalker that has PPC/Large Lasers for range, and then SRMs for brawling. That configuration represents a large threat at all ranges.

I would wait to see how large maps like Alpine and Desert effect the meta before doing anything crazy with mech balance.

Edited by Vechs, 07 February 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[Irvine]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Cats have better durability than atlases, because of their shape, speed, jets, and sides you can only touch when they feel like letting you.

Stop typing. You're embarrassing.

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I guess the cent should have learned how to DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODGE.

Or use the mystical shield arm. Because the missiles that didn't ruin his arm wouldn't have ruined the side torso, probably to the point where his center would have gotten very hurt, and valk would have jetted away onto the roof, spun 180 into the air, and killed him with another perfect shot.

It's not like anyone in here plays with the mech, or anything.

Wow i've played with you and you shouldn't be preaching there brother

[M0oP0o]

We should ban all mechs and just have one called the even.

It would be armed with one small laser, one flamer, one MG, and a single tube with narc. Have 18 armor every where and move 30 kph.

Oh and it should look like this:

Edited by M0oP0o, 07 February 2013 - 12:02 AM.