440 replies to this topic

[machine]

oh god delete the OPs account and call it good.

[Vassago Rain]

Astroniomix, on 06 February 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

I disagree about the jumpjets. Spending the tonnage for them should give you an advantage over someone who doesn't.

You can turn 180 in the air in no time at all.

Do you even play the game?

[Vodrin Thales]

GalaxyBluestar, on 06 February 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

stalker is an assault now heavies obtaining more firepower than an assault doesn't strike to you as "ifey"

anyways these are just "OPINIONS" why is everyone getting heated just because we beg to differ? well as i said the poll's done it's work so does any of this really matter?

time to log off and enjoy the game instead of entering the eternal flame war that easily engulfs people.

I didn't think I was getting heated at all. Anyways my point was that the A1's very heavy alpha comes at the expense of any decent range to it's attack, and even with the speed you can pack in with an XL engine, they are very short ranged, and very fragile. Thus they are only really OP in uncoordinated pug drops where they can reliably engage at their preferred range. The Stalker can pack just as heavy an alpha with better armor and much better range, but at the price of being much less mobile with a much more limited field of fire. Each mech gives something up to gain certain advantages and I am ok with that.

[Solis Obscuri]

Just as a comment here, I do think the Catapult has a bit too much twist range. But I don't think reducing that will help a lot with either the Boomcat or Splatcat (or Gausscat).


Part of the reason for that is that while arm movement range can be situationally useful, the lack of convergence time requirement for 'mechs without arm traverse makes them very efficient boats. Now, in the case of a Stalker, lack of traverse is a hindrance, since it turns like a pig. In the case of a 64 SRM Boomcat with 325 engine, turning isn't much of a problem. Might be moderately effective in the case of the K2s, but even then the lack of convergence time makes dual Gauss or dual AC/20s an attractive proposition from both a min/max and ease of use standpoint.


Reducing jump jet turning ability seems like it would screw a lot of 'mechs besides the Catapult. It would certainly screw the Spider, since jump jet maneuvering is about the only thing it has going for it. Not to mention the Highlander, which may actually be a pretty handy brawler with its combination of good arm-mounted weaponry and jump jets.


Realistically, the lack of convergence is the biggest issue with the dual AC/20 Splatcat; as for the A1 Boomcat, well, SRMs are hard to beat as a brawling weapon right now - per tonnage, they're the hardest-hitting close range weapon against any opponent who doesn't possess great speed (also, ECM has made SSRMs situationally either very strong or completely useless). I'm glad that SRMs have been made useful, don't take me wrong; they've been a really poor choice in most previous MW titles; but it's possible that their characteristics are a little too potent atm; spread makes them weak past 130m or so, but at any range where the dispersion is narrow a 3 ton weapon doing 15 damage/salvo for just 4 points of heat is tough to beat.


So the larger solution may really be to go and look at the convergence mechanics again and do a little more tuning of missile damage and spread patterns, and to work out a larger solution to alpha-boating based around that, since it's clear that the mechanics the devs tried to put in place aren't foolproof. Personally, I'd be tempted just limit everyone to chain firing - putting massed weapons of the same type on more of a level playing field with a more varied weapon loadout. That would make people think about a lot of builds, from Splatcats and Boomcats to 6 PPC Stalkers...

[Norris J Packard]

Legitimate question here for the guys defending the A1 and K2.

Will you continue to defend it when it is one-shotting Orions?

[LaserAngel]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

You can turn 180 in the air in no time at all.

Do you even play the game?

You even conserve most of you momentum without hitting 0 when you pull that 180 with Jump Jets.

[Vassago Rain]

Solis Obscuri, on 06 February 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Just as a comment here, I do think the Catapult has a bit too much twist range. But I don't think reducing that will help a lot with either the Boomcat or Splatcat (or Gausscat).


Part of the reason for that is that while arm movement range can be situationally useful, the lack of convergence time requirement for 'mechs without arm traverse makes them very efficient boats. Now, in the case of a Stalker, lack of traverse is a hindrance, since it turns like a pig. In the case of a 64 SRM Boomcat with 325 engine, turning isn't much of a problem. Might be moderately effective in the case of the K2s, but even then the lack of convergence time makes dual Gauss or dual AC/20s an attractive proposition from both a min/max and ease of use standpoint.


Reducing jump jet turning ability seems like it would screw a lot of 'mechs besides the Catapult. It would certainly screw the Spider, since jump jet maneuvering is about the only thing it has going for it. Not to mention the Highlander, which may actually be a pretty handy brawler with its combination of good arm-mounted weaponry and jump jets.


Realistically, the lack of convergence is the biggest issue with the dual AC/20 Splatcat; as for the A1 Boomcat, well, SRMs are hard to beat as a brawling weapon right now - per tonnage, they're the hardest-hitting close range weapon against any opponent who doesn't possess great speed (also, ECM has made SSRMs situationally either very strong or completely useless). I'm glad that SRMs have been made useful, don't take me wrong; they've been a really poor choice in most previous MW titles; but it's possible that their characteristics are a little too potent atm; spread makes them weak past 130m or so, but at any range where the dispersion is narrow a 3 ton weapon doing 15 damage/salvo for just 4 points of heat is tough to beat.


So the larger solution may really be to go and look at the convergence mechanics again and do a little more tuning of missile damage and spread patterns, and to work out a larger solution to alpha-boating based around that, since it's clear that the mechanics the devs tried to put in place aren't foolproof. Personally, I'd be tempted just limit everyone to chain firing - putting massed weapons of the same type on more of a level playing field with a more varied weapon loadout. That would make people think about a lot of builds, from Splatcats and Boomcats to 6 PPC Stalkers...

Cats can't take 325 engines. Will you golds please at least try playing the game before you let your fingers near the keyboards?

[Like a Sir]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Legitimate question here for the guys defending the A1 and K2.

Will you continue to defend it when it is one-shotting Orions?

I don't know, that depends. Will you continue attacking cats when Orions cockpit them in one shot?

[Bishop Steiner]

as long as I can one shot an Atlas, why not an Orion? Especially if they keep giving it nice big cockpit glass to aim at? And the only way even a SplatCat "one shots" a Heavy is from behind, and even then it usually has to be point blank or the spread keeps it from doing concentrated damage.

The Gaussapult does nothing that 3 variants of the Cataphract can't.. mount 2 Gauss. The AC/20s have their own niche, but plenty of limits (High heat, low ammo, short range, no XL). Heck, the Cat 4X and Ilya are more dangerous because they can elevate and depress their arm mounted gauss, meaning that unlike the Cat, they can fire up and down at steep angles.

and again, if you let a Splatcat get behind you, and less than 200 meters away, you deserve to go down, no matter what you are driving.

[Glythe]

The combination of 6 missile slots (which become SRM 6s) and lots of torso twist, high maneuverability and almost no penalty for using an XL engine makes the Catapult one of the best boats in the game.

Double armor was introduced because it was too easy to kill people without it. There were supposed to be anti boating measures.....

I'd love to see a max of a certain type of weapon on a mech (let's say 4 of any specific weapon). If for example the Catapult were limited to no more than 24 SRMs per volley it really wouldn't be that game breaking. As it stands right now it is one of the lamest OP builds in the game. Not much comes close in terms of mobility, firepower, functionality (twist) and survivability.

There was a reason the Gauss rifle got nerfed..... it was the K2's fault. I'd love to see a change to prevent 36 SRMs from being able to be fired all at the same time on one target (be it a firing delay or anti-boating measures).

[Norris J Packard]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I don't know, that depends. Will you continue attacking cats when Orions cockpit them in one shot?

Considering the Orion will have a larger head hitbox? Yes.

[valkyrie]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I don't know, that depends. Will you continue attacking cats when Orions cockpit them in one shot?

Just like every other 'Mech in the game with an Alpha of 40 damage more can already? Oh wait, they don't.

Meanwhile I'm walking up to fresh Centurions in my A1, hitting them with a single Alpha, and leaving them with a head, two legs, and a red CT. I can practically hear the enemy screaming in horror before I hit him one more time for my two-hit kill.

[Norris J Packard]

BALANCED!

[Eddrick]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Legitimate question here for the guys defending the A1 and K2.

Will you continue to defend it when it is one-shotting Orions?

The Orion should be able to one shot My K2 aswell. Since both have a very easy to hit cockpit.

[Norris J Packard]

Eddrick, on 06 February 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

The Orion should be able to one shot My K2 aswell. Since both have a very easy to hit cockpit.

But the Orion won't come with the Owl neck that the Catapult has.

[Bishop Steiner]

Solis Obscuri, on 06 February 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Just as a comment here, I do think the Catapult has a bit too much twist range. But I don't think reducing that will help a lot with either the Boomcat or Splatcat (or Gausscat).


Part of the reason for that is that while arm movement range can be situationally useful, the lack of convergence time requirement for 'mechs without arm traverse makes them very efficient boats. Now, in the case of a Stalker, lack of traverse is a hindrance, since it turns like a pig. In the case of a 64 SRM Boomcat with 325 engine, turning isn't much of a problem. Might be moderately effective in the case of the K2s, but even then the lack of convergence time makes dual Gauss or dual AC/20s an attractive proposition from both a min/max and ease of use standpoint.


Reducing jump jet turning ability seems like it would screw a lot of 'mechs besides the Catapult. It would certainly screw the Spider, since jump jet maneuvering is about the only thing it has going for it. Not to mention the Highlander, which may actually be a pretty handy brawler with its combination of good arm-mounted weaponry and jump jets.


Realistically, the lack of convergence is the biggest issue with the dual AC/20 Splatcat; as for the A1 Boomcat, well, SRMs are hard to beat as a brawling weapon right now - per tonnage, they're the hardest-hitting close range weapon against any opponent who doesn't possess great speed (also, ECM has made SSRMs situationally either very strong or completely useless). I'm glad that SRMs have been made useful, don't take me wrong; they've been a really poor choice in most previous MW titles; but it's possible that their characteristics are a little too potent atm; spread makes them weak past 130m or so, but at any range where the dispersion is narrow a 3 ton weapon doing 15 damage/salvo for just 4 points of heat is tough to beat.


So the larger solution may really be to go and look at the convergence mechanics again and do a little more tuning of missile damage and spread patterns, and to work out a larger solution to alpha-boating based around that, since it's clear that the mechanics the devs tried to put in place aren't foolproof. Personally, I'd be tempted just limit everyone to chain firing - putting massed weapons of the same type on more of a level playing field with a more varied weapon loadout. That would make people think about a lot of builds, from Splatcats and Boomcats to 6 PPC Stalkers...

I think you pointed out the great balancers with SRMS.. their spread makes their effective range atrocious. The fact that almost everyone wants to turn every fight into a face hugging brawl only makes it seem worse than it is. They DON'T focus damage at all unless one is literally hugging the opponent, and the SRM 6 is pretty atrocious for ammo endurance.

Seriously my friend, how effective are the AC20 cat or SplatCat when they draw a Caustic Drop? Suddenly they are the biggest liabilities on the field as they basically can't hit a damn thing, while they are getting chewed to death with LRM, PPC, AC, Gauss and Laser fire.

Yes, in maps they can use terrain or buildings, they are very dangerous.... that is the point. But the same can be said for LRM, PPC and Gauss boats on the more open maps.

[Solis Obscuri]

That is a salient point, Bishop.

[Norris J Packard]

So do you guys have any real points to make here?

It's getting kinda late.

[Like a Sir]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

BALANCED!

It does demonstrate that if you stand very still, while a catapult with the open flaps walks towards you, and shoot your terrible load out at anything but it's face that is already stripped of armor, you will die a painful death rather well... I would recommend it for the training videos...

[MustrumRidcully]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

They've got something like 270 degrees of twist. That doesn't seem fair to me, and many of us told them this would cause problems.

Indeed, it was causing problems months and months ago, back when I first made this account. Before I even bought founders. Catapults have needed an overhaul for as long as the game's existed, but they still haven't gotten one.

I don't think they'll ever get to it, which is why operation: steak sauce was initiated. If no one's gonna do anything, then we're simply gonna play with the mech to its full potential.

It seems especially weird considering that they gave the Stalker right out of the gate a heavily nerfed torso twist capability. What's so special about the Catapult that it deserves such a twist capability?

---

For a long time, long-range energy weapons were too weak. PPCs, ER PPCs, ER Large Lasers, all those weapons were too hot to be used effectively. Coupled with the map designs, it makes brawling builds highly preferable for everyone. Now at least the PPC got a deserved boost, giving more mechs the option to go long-range. So it might be that the Splatapult might become less impressive now as there are some long range builds capable of engaging it at longer ranges. It helps if more than the dedicated Gauss Catapult is capable of sustained long-range combat engagement.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 February 2013 - 11:25 PM.