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Poll: catapults should they be nerfed? (641 member(s) have cast votes)

should all cata's be given a nerf for the a1 and k2 power boats syndrome?

  1. Voted yes (91 votes [14.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.20%

  2. no (512 votes [79.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 79.88%

  3. other thoughts, state opinion in thread (38 votes [5.93%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.93%

should the a1 be nerfed?

  1. for it's Manoeuvrability (84 votes [13.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.10%

  2. Voted for it's missle stacking (102 votes [15.91%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.91%

  3. something else, state opinion in thread (43 votes [6.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.71%

  4. HELL NO! (412 votes [64.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 64.27%

should the k2 be nerfed?

  1. for it's Manoeuvrability (24 votes [3.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.74%

  2. Voted for it's heavy ballistics in tiny torso anomaly (161 votes [25.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.12%

  3. something else, state opinion in thread (39 votes [6.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.08%

  4. HELL NO! (417 votes [65.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 65.05%

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#321 Andross Deverow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:23 AM

View PostQuantumButler, on 07 February 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Yeah let's have a 65 ton mech that's stronger than the Cataphract or the freaking Awesome, that's balance right?



>Catapult
>Not Broken

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA


Stop whining. A damn Catapult has crap armor compared to both of those mechs and has comparable speed. Jesus... You want balance?

View PostQuantumButler, on 07 February 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

When the "one trick" is "being able to effortlessly vaporize most mechs in 2 alpha strikes" without giving up any speed, armor, or maneuverability to do so, then no, the "one trick pony" isn't "just fine".


ummmm. chances are that one trick pony is a paper pony with an xl engine which gets cored itself in maybe 3 alphas from any mech. Stop whining...

#322 QuantumButler

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

View PostAndross Deverow, on 07 February 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:


Stop whining. A damn Catapult has crap armor compared to both of those mechs and has comparable speed. Jesus... You want balance?


ummmm. chances are that one trick pony is a paper pony with an xl engine which gets cored itself in maybe 3 alphas from any mech. Stop whining...


you don't even play the game except on patch days when all the new players are in their overheating trial toasters, do you?

#323 Stradivarious

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:54 AM

I've been here since the first week of closed beta back in June of last year. Ponied up the cash *after* playing for weeks in closed beta to be a legendary founder. I still play as much as the wife lets me get away with and have 14 mechs in my bay currently. People have complained about the K2 since all the way back then when the first double AC/20/gaussapults appeared, I myself warned that it would be an endless source of issues.

That being said, I currently own only my founders Cat and a K2 that I haven't driven in a couple months, don't own an A-1, nor am I considering buying one at this time. I did for quite awhile run the K2 as a Gaussapult but have moved on to bigger and better things.

While I standby my original post many months ago(specifically about not having size restrictions on hardpoints) I've also observed that while a certain fotm chassis/config may be indeed powerful, there is *always* a way to take it down. Your failure to take advantage of the designs inherent weaknesses is not everyone elses problem, there is always a way, you just have to find it, and use it. Oh ****, SRM boat Cat comes running in, priority target, everyone shoots it. Oh wait, you aren't on voice comms and are pugging, better hope your puggies know what priority means or that you can type fast enough. and get them to respond.

My current favorite to drive is usually my 5M Stalker LRM boat and I constantly get **** about LRMs being useless, etc.. Then I proceed to do triple to 4 times the damage of anyone else and rock the living **** out of any jammer boat stupid enough to go out in the open(news flash, TAG breaks jamming). However, that firepower comes with a heavy price, someone gets close to me and my 4 medium lasers aren't enough to dissuade them and my team mates are being ******** or distracted, I'm screwed, I won't last long, period. SRM cat comes at me, if it's outside of 180m, it will die on the 2nd volley of LRMs, depending on the impact angle, I might have to throw the lasers into the mix to finish it off. If I let it get inside that 180m, I deserve what I get. I might get pissy about it, but I know it was my own fault for letting it get that close. It's all about situational awareness in that particular case.

TL;DR and somewhat elitist ;) Doesn't need to be nerfed, you need to be more situationally aware of what you are facing and it's inherent weaknesses.

#324 Andross Deverow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:59 AM

Been here since closed beta there bub. I do know what im talking about because I have been cored sooo many times in my A1 and had my ears blown off to become toothless. Apparently you are the only pilot out there that cant figure out how to kill a glass cannon.

Regards

#325 QuantumButler

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostStradivarious, on 07 February 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

I've been here since the first week of closed beta back in June of last year. Ponied up the cash *after* playing for weeks in closed beta to be a legendary founder. I still play as much as the wife lets me get away with and have 14 mechs in my bay currently. People have complained about the K2 since all the way back then when the first double AC/20/gaussapults appeared, I myself warned that it would be an endless source of issues.

That being said, I currently own only my founders Cat and a K2 that I haven't driven in a couple months, don't own an A-1, nor am I considering buying one at this time. I did for quite awhile run the K2 as a Gaussapult but have moved on to bigger and better things.

While I standby my original post many months ago(specifically about not having size restrictions on hardpoints) I've also observed that while a certain fotm chassis/config may be indeed powerful, there is *always* a way to take it down. Your failure to take advantage of the designs inherent weaknesses is not everyone elses problem, there is always a way, you just have to find it, and use it. Oh ****, SRM boat Cat comes running in, priority target, everyone shoots it. Oh wait, you aren't on voice comms and are pugging, better hope your puggies know what priority means or that you can type fast enough. and get them to respond.

My current favorite to drive is usually my 5M Stalker LRM boat and I constantly get **** about LRMs being useless, etc.. Then I proceed to do triple to 4 times the damage of anyone else and rock the living **** out of any jammer boat stupid enough to go out in the open(news flash, TAG breaks jamming). However, that firepower comes with a heavy price, someone gets close to me and my 4 medium lasers aren't enough to dissuade them and my team mates are being ******** or distracted, I'm screwed, I won't last long, period. SRM cat comes at me, if it's outside of 180m, it will die on the 2nd volley of LRMs, depending on the impact angle, I might have to throw the lasers into the mix to finish it off. If I let it get inside that 180m, I deserve what I get. I might get pissy about it, but I know it was my own fault for letting it get that close. It's all about situational awareness in that particular case.

TL;DR and somewhat elitist ;) Doesn't need to be nerfed, you need to be more situationally aware of what you are facing and it's inherent weaknesses.


I see you didn't read the thread either.

I'm a Cat pilot, I am disgusted at how powerful they are, I want them toned down, I don't have issues killing them, they're just too good.

View PostAndross Deverow, on 07 February 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Been here since closed beta there bub. I do know what im talking about because I have been cored sooo many times in my A1 and had my ears blown off to become toothless. Apparently you are the only pilot out there that cant figure out how to kill a glass cannon.

Regards


Apparently you should have spent less time in MWO and more time learning reading comprehension, I KNOW HOW TO KILL A1S, I DRIVE THEM, YOU KILL THEM WITH MORE A1'S OR A 3 TO 1 NUMERICAL ADVANTAGE.


Thing is, when ONE SINGLE MECH can tank THREE MECHS ON IT'S OWN IT'S TOO FREAKING GOOD.

#326 Codejack

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostQuantumButler, on 07 February 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Thing is, when ONE SINGLE MECH can tank THREE MECHS ON IT'S OWN IT'S TOO FREAKING GOOD.


OK, so that makes my Commando, my Raven, two of my Catapults, Stalkers, a couple of Awesome variants, and the DDC Atlas too good.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the problem here, other than the fact that the game itself is unbalanced and favors certain build types over others.

#327 Andross Deverow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:08 AM

LOL!!

Complaining about the Catapult....OMG! I cant wait to see your posts after Clan Tech gets implemented..... ;)

Regards

#328 BanditRaptor

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostCodejack, on 07 February 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:


OK, so that makes my Commando, my Raven, two of my Catapults, Stalkers, a couple of Awesome variants, and the DDC Atlas too good.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the problem here, other than the fact that the game itself is unbalanced and favors certain build types over others.

Why are you fighting an attempt to balance the game while complaining that the game is unbalanced?

The catapult A1 and K2 chassis are unbalanced. If they are addressed, and if ECM is addressed, that'll do wonders to balance the game.

View PostAndross Deverow, on 07 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

LOL!!

Complaining about the Catapult....OMG! I cant wait to see your posts after Clan Tech gets implemented..... ;)

Regards

Clan tech can be done right. It'll be interesting to see how it fits in the current game.

It's entirely possible that clan mechs can be balanced while the catapult still won't be, if things continue as they are.

#329 VXJaeger

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:13 AM

Well, if devs buff (cut possibility of jamming in half) my Muro's 3 UAC5s that I can pulverize Streak/SRM/AC20/GaussCats in 5s after I see them, I don't care.
Otherwise they are minor pain in the ***.

Edited by VXJaeger, 07 February 2013 - 11:18 AM.


#330 Codejack

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostBeakieHelmet, on 07 February 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Why are you fighting an attempt to balance the game while complaining that the game is unbalanced?

The catapult A1 and K2 chassis are unbalanced. If they are addressed, and if ECM is addressed, that'll do wonders to balance the game.


Because it's not that the chassis' are unbalanced, but the weapons that they carry.

#331 Conjure

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

I run a k2 with 2 ultra ac/5. I run it well and can handle a one on one with most mechs and pilots. I run into plenty of other mechs and builds that keep up. When I run my stalker or atlas I eat k2s. Imo any assualt pilot that knows what he is doing should be able to smoke a k2 with no problem. My favorite target to hit when i'm piloting a k2 and my stalkers are infact k2's.They are easy to headshot and easy hit that fat center torso. Don't mean to sound cycnical or patronizing but learn how to kill them.

Edited by Conjure, 07 February 2013 - 11:29 AM.


#332 Wolfways

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:29 AM

View PostKylere, on 07 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:


So, 80% of all players run cats huh?

I wish someone would tell that to all the ECM lights I keep seeing.

Actually it's more like 50%+
I just had 2 matches where 4 of our team were Catapults, and another where 6 on our team were Catapults.

#333 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

I think it is possible that the SRM6 is a bit too good, and a mech that can boat 6 "too good" weapons could show this off.
I have no final opinion on this matter, I just know that if the SRM stats are okay, the LB10 X-AC aren't, or vice versa.

But all Catapults always benefit from one big perk - they don't have lower arm actuators, but they have the same firing arc as a mech that would have - and they also benefit from this fire arc for torso-mounted weapons.

They don't neccessarily have to nerf the Catapult torso twist range down to that of a Stalker (including the 3F), but it's twist range is just too good. The torso twist range gives it unprecedented ability to use its weapon even at close range. That certainly also fuels people using the Catapult in a Brawling situation - like the Splatapult or the AC/20 Cat require. It also helped the Gauss Cats. The torso twist range is not just an offensive benefit, but also ad efensive one - you can always perform defensive twist - someone shoots you in the back? Just turn the torso around and shoot him in the face and present him your heaviest armor parts at the same time.

#334 Sifright

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostAndross Deverow, on 07 February 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:


Stop whining. A damn Catapult has crap armor compared to both of those mechs and has comparable speed. Jesus... You want balance?


ummmm. chances are that one trick pony is a paper pony with an xl engine which gets cored itself in maybe 3 alphas from any mech. Stop whining...


crap armour?

MY catapult runs with 422 armour my cataphract runs with 434.

What the hell are you smoking if you think the phract has great armour but the catapult doesn't?

my catapult also runs at highest engine rating

with two jump jets

with 6 tonnes of ammo and 6 srm6;s

would you care to explain what my downside is?

it's not armour.

it's not speed.

it's not fire power.

it's not torso twist (got the best in the game)

It's not the silhouette because the catapult is more compact than the phract.

#335 von Pilsner

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:51 AM

It's the large HUD hit box.

#336 Andross Deverow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:37 PM

View PostSifright, on 07 February 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

crap armour?

MY catapult runs with 422 armour my cataphract runs with 434.

What the hell are you smoking if you think the phract has great armour but the catapult doesn't?

my catapult also runs at highest engine rating

with two jump jets

with 6 tonnes of ammo and 6 srm6;s

would you care to explain what my downside is?

it's not armour.

it's not speed.

it's not fire power.

it's not torso twist (got the best in the game)

It's not the silhouette because the catapult is more compact than the phract.


Ammo shortage = 6 tons isnt enough, Short range weapons = cored easily if up against any organized teams, XL engine = cored easily, short range weapons = get yer ears blasted off before you get into your range, first to be targeted in any game with reasonably good opponents, not the greatest firing rate, hit anywhere in the huge torso hitbox alot of times hits your cockpit.

Ive been piloting Catapults since OB started. They have just as many down sides as up sides. Bottom line is people that ***** about them just cant fiigure out how to properly approach and kill them. They are glass cannons. Be it a K2 or an A1, both are easily dispatched if done right.

Regards

#337 Andross Deverow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

Anyways, last time ima post in this topic.

Nerfing the hell out of things in a game is one of the fastest ways to kill said game. There are many ways to get to an objective people just need to stop and think about how they want to get there.
This is still beta we all know this. There will be things change that people will not like. And some changes that people will like. But nerfing something that doesnt need it isnt the way to go. Like I mentioned earlier, just wait , when Clans invade and Clan Tech is out you may just be wishing that you had a couple Catapults on your team... Un-nerfed as is....

Regards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 07 February 2013 - 01:04 PM.


#338 SumBtch

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

The Cats are a very good platform. Cat pilots are doing the same thing that the rest of us are; trying to get the best performance out of which ever chassis we are using. I don't think that the Cat design or load-out possibilities needs to be changed. The Dev's are keeping with the purpose of the design from when it was "laid" down in the old book series. You have different classes for different battlefield roles. If a Cat is setup for "knife fighting" then so be it.

Having said that I also believe that dealing out 90 damage in one hit is a bit much. Something needs to be done. It's probably a bit too much. So instead of tinkering with it's load out, maybe increase it's "radar cross section" a bit. Make the Cat driver more vulnerable to long range attack and have to work a little bit to get in close. Put a little pilot skill back into it. Make them have to use cover more and dodge LRM's in order to get into the knife fighting range which would also hamstring them a bit and force them to pair up with an ECM mech.

Each mech has it's good and bad points. They each have their own "Achilles heel". If they didn't then the game would devolve down into all of use driving Cats and pounding away at each other. (That would get pretty boring after a bit.)

That's my "two bits", take it or leave it....

#339 Sifright

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostAndross Deverow, on 07 February 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:


Ammo shortage = 6 tons isnt enough, Short range weapons = cored easily if up against any organized teams, XL engine = cored easily, short range weapons = get yer ears blasted off before you get into your range, first to be targeted in any game with reasonably good opponents, not the greatest firing rate, hit anywhere in the huge torso hitbox alot of times hits your cockpit.

Ive been piloting Catapults since OB started. They have just as many down sides as up sides. Bottom line is people that ***** about them just cant fiigure out how to properly approach and kill them. They are glass cannons. Be it a K2 or an A1, both are easily dispatched if done right.

Regards


6 tonnes is enough to do 1500 damage.

That is enough for me to kill most of the other team what the hell is wrong with you, it's damned easy to hit with the majority of that ammo to.

Xl engine on the mech with the smallest side torsos of any mech in the game not a risk at all.


Just shoot the ears at range is the dumbest crap i've ever heard.

Why the hell do you presume on maps with metric fucktonnes of cover that you will get that chance?

Any half way decent A1 pilot will be able to get into enemy formations within about 100m from cover. Flanking you.

90 damage alphas every 4 seconds. Each alpha represents a massive chance to kill or cut your entire weapon load out in half instantly.

They ARE NOT GLASS CANNONS.

They run with FULL ARMOUR.

WHICH IS 20 points LESS than a Cataphract.

Whilst running at 86.4 KPH.

I RUN THE DAMN THING.

You guys telling me the ears are a weakness are fools. All i have to do to make that 'weakness' irrelevant is use the buttloads of cover on every damn map to approach you with out you being able to see me.

Edited by Sifright, 07 February 2013 - 01:25 PM.


#340 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:32 PM

On the subject of range being advantageous to certain weapon types:  Yes, I believe the current metagame (heavily influenced by an unbalanced ECM mechanic) encourages lots of brawling. SRMs are a nearly ideal brawling weapon at the moment. Ergo, builds that can carry lots of SRMs are desirable. The A1 can carry lots of SRMs, so it is back in play. K2 Splatcats are also back in fashion because of how common close-range engagements are currently.
  
But prior to ECM, there were still a fair number of close engagements, and massed SSRMs had become the FotM build - not so efficient in terms of damage per hardpoint as SRMs, but very reliable at hitting even the fastest targets, and much more reliable at focusing damage on the torso within their full range (not just the first 100m of it) regardless of how the target jinked or twisted to spread damage.
  
If we had maps that were huge open flats with a ridgeline near the border instead, I fully expect we'd see the K2 Gausscat return in force - great ability to concentrate damage, much lower heat build-up than massed PPC builds even after the latest PPC buff.
  
Any weapons setup that can deliver massive point damage with manageable heat build-up and minimal convergence issues is going to be favorable. Period. From A1 Boomcats to K2 Splatcats/Gausscats to the 9 Small Laser Fastbacks of CB to the AWS-8R LRM-boats with Artemis and 2.0 damage per missile, anything that can dump a big payload (and preferably a very well-focused one) is always going to be a strong option - it destroys the target in the shortest time possible while also minimizing its capability to respond.

High DPS builds really are never quite as good, since they are vulnerable to being disabled or destroyed by a heavy-alpha build before they can perform adequate damage to disable it. The only exceptions to this are extremely fast/nimble high DPS builds (current SSRM lights) that can evade firing arcs, and builds that can put a target into "lockdown" either by jarring aimpoint (multiple AC/2 or UAC/5 builds before impact nerf) or outright shutting it down (Trollmandos with broken Flamers in early CB.) Of course, builds that can promote a perpetual stun effect are, themselves, problematic from a balance standpoint as well, hence some of the Flamer heat and light AC shaking nerfs.
  
But the core issue, I think, remains that arm/torso convergence only really works as an anti-alpha-boating mechanic on 'mechs that need to split similar weapon types between their arms and torsos and have separate traverse rates for their arms and torsos. Hence a CPLT-K2 or a CTF-4X is a better Gauss boat than a CTF-3D, despite having an equal number of hardpoints available.
  
Nerfing individual weapons or chassis because they make a useful boat isn't necessarily going to do anything except drive people to boat the next FotM weapon/chassis combo. Implementing mechanics that force people to fire place shots individually, or ones that degrade accuracy on heavy alpha-strikes, are probably a better solution.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 07 February 2013 - 01:34 PM.






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