44 replies to this topic

[Pr8Dator]

How is ELO affecting 4 or 8 men premade groups? Can players of different ELO scores still drop together since we don't really know each other's ELO score? How does ELO affect group drops?

[Pr8Dator]

How is ELO affecting 4 or 8 men premade groups? Can players of different ELO scores still drop together since we don't really know each other's ELO score? How does ELO affect group drops?

[Ilwrath]

Pr8Dator, on 07 February 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

How is ELO affecting 4 or 8 men premade groups? Can players of different ELO scores still drop together since we don't really know each other's ELO score? How does ELO affect group drops?

I guess you will get a group ELO. The whole ELO thing will probably flop hard and nothing will get better about the matchmaking.

I don't really understand why we need ELO for premades at all. If you have a stinky premade, you should be stomped bad by the better premades. Either you then get better/play smarter or you continue to get rolled. If you cannot take getting rolled all the time you better break up the premade and play solo.

There is no place for the weak in war. Its a shame they can hide in premades in this game.

[HC Harlequin]

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/

[Joseph Mallan]

Pr8Dator, on 07 February 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

How is ELO affecting 4 or 8 men premade groups? Can players of different ELO scores still drop together since we don't really know each other's ELO score? How does ELO affect group drops?

i would assume the groups Elo score will an average for the group so the weaker players will be playing a bit above their level and the stronger will be a little below until the weaker players get up to speed., then the Elo score will adjust and the process will rinse wash repeat.

Ilwrath... Someone needs a nap. you are cranky.

[Redshift2k5]

When you make a group it find the team's aggregate Elo, and matches an enemy team with a similar aggregate Elo

[Inviticus]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

i would assume the groups Elo score will an average for the group so the weaker players will be playing a bit above their level and the stronger will be a little below until the weaker players get up to speed., then the Elo score will adjust and the process will rinse wash repeat.

Ilwrath... Someone needs a nap. you are cranky.

Sounds like an easy way to exploit to me. Instead, the group should function at the ELO rating of the individual with the highest or weighting the average so that the lower the ELO of an individual member, the less it counts towards the group rating which will ensure that high ELO players aren't sandbagging into lower tier games.

Edited by Inviticus, 07 February 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Poisoner]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I guess you will get a group ELO. The whole ELO thing will probably flop hard and nothing will get better about the matchmaking.

I don't really understand why we need ELO for premades at all. If you have a stinky premade, you should be stomped bad by the better premades. Either you then get better/play smarter or you continue to get rolled. If you cannot take getting rolled all the time you better break up the premade and play solo.

There is no place for the weak in war. Its a shame they can hide in premades in this game.

Hey man, you need hugs.

[Ilwrath]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Ilwrath... Someone needs a nap. you are cranky.

I am not cranky. Maybe that post seems more bitter than it should. Right now I don't care at all about premades or pubs or whatever. The game will not change so its either adapt or leave. I cannot see how Elo will change anything. I don't believe it will change anything.

I see them provide more and more fluff (that I consider useless) and less content. Some solid bugfixing. I have to give them that. But the game itself is moving nowhere.

They do so many strange things. Just look at the battle score. Why even include that when its bogus nonsense?

Is there any reason at all to think that they will get the Elo right and that it will improve the game? Who will it improve the game for and how? Apart from brand new players that is but they are not the only ones that need an improved gaming experience with this game.

[MischiefSC]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

I am not cranky. Maybe that post seems more bitter than it should. Right now I don't care at all about premades or pubs or whatever. The game will not change so its either adapt or leave. I cannot see how Elo will change anything. I don't believe it will change anything.

I see them provide more and more fluff (that I consider useless) and less content. Some solid bugfixing. I have to give them that. But the game itself is moving nowhere.

They do so many strange things. Just look at the battle score. Why even include that when its bogus nonsense?

Is there any reason at all to think that they will get the Elo right and that it will improve the game? Who will it improve the game for and how? Apart from brand new players that is but they are not the only ones that need an improved gaming experience with this game.

The implications are that you've lost faith in the developers. That's unfortunate but admittedly a big danger to letting players into a game in beta. We're probably 6-12 months away from what PGI would consider a finished product, still releasing core content and balancing basic functions.

Here's the thing about what Elo will do. It will effectively break people out roughly into groups of comparable skill for matchmaking both with you and against you. This means that you won't drop against 4x or 8x teams of highly competitive players unless you are one yourself. It also means that you'll drop on the same side as people comparably skilled as yourself.

Skewing weighting by dropping new people in a premade with high Elo people isn't going to work that well as what you'll really do is drop those new people into matches far, far above their skill level and the person with the massive Elo is only going to be a tiny bit down the rung. Elo is a huge, huge long gradual curve.

You'll still drop with and against people a bit up and down the scale from yourself, just not drastically so. The huge bit that will change is that EVERYONE in the match on both sides is going to be of a roughly comparable skill level. That's a big difference and will remove a lot of the 'well, my team is all in trial mechs. Guess I'm going to get rolled' aspect.

The people who will get punished the worst are actually premade groups. Most the people with an 80% success rate because they are dropping with teams against less skilled opponents are going to have a very bad couple of weeks of getting rolled. They're only going to drop in their groups against very skilled, very competitive other groups and that's going to shake the hardcore folks out from the pub farmers in a 'message delivery from Terrible Terry Tate' sort of way.

What's even more funny is that they can't 'step down'. If they drop pug without the benefit of their team they're going to drop as pugs in games full of highly competitive teams without the benefit of teamspeak and just get *crushed*.

Sit back, relax, enjoy yourself. Pug life will improve not because of a shift in how many premades you play against but because your fellow players will be made up of folks of a comparable skill. Then get some popcorn because the next round of QQing will all be premade groups learning how to deal with strings of 20 or so defeats and watching their win/loss and KDR drop like a stone. The gates to the garden of Pugstomping will soon be closing for them and their tears will make sweet wine indeed.

[Rift Hawk]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I guess you will get a group ELO. The whole ELO thing will probably flop hard and nothing will get better about the matchmaking.

I don't really understand why we need ELO for premades at all. If you have a stinky premade, you should be stomped bad by the better premades. Either you then get better/play smarter or you continue to get rolled. If you cannot take getting rolled all the time you better break up the premade and play solo.

There is no place for the weak in war. Its a shame they can hide in premades in this game.

You do realize this game is supposed to rely on team based strategy right ? Its not a single player game. Its an MMO. If your looking for single player your in the wrong place. I run premades and drop solo. When I do run premades its because some of my buddies get online and we all play together. Not in an attempt to better our stats. Stats are worthless. We play to have fun, not to have good stats.

The problem isn't premades, its people refuse to admit that this is an online game. Yes there are people that run premades and only premades. There are also people like me who run both and like to play with others because we aren't anti-social.

[HC Harlequin]

Redshift2k5, on 07 February 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

When you make a group it find the team's aggregate Elo, and matches an enemy team with a similar aggregate Elo

It's not going to match like that. It is still going to take the available players just like the current matching system. It just assigns a % possibility to win that will adjust your ELO if you actually do win. I linked the ELO matchmaking system posted by the devs in a previous post.

Only if there is an overabundance of players available will it start to get choosy

[HiplyRustic]

Pr8Dator, on 07 February 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

How is ELO affecting 4 or 8 men premade groups? Can players of different ELO scores still drop together since we don't really know each other's ELO score? How does ELO affect group drops?

No. ELO was originally a 5-man premade, not a 4 or an 8.



Not sure how Elo ratings will affect premades though.

[HC Harlequin]

[delete]

Edited by HC Harlequin, 07 February 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

I am not cranky. Maybe that post seems more bitter than it should. Right now I don't care at all about premades or pubs or whatever. The game will not change so its either adapt or leave. I cannot see how Elo will change anything. I don't believe it will change anything.

I see them provide more and more fluff (that I consider useless) and less content. Some solid bugfixing. I have to give them that. But the game itself is moving nowhere.

They do so many strange things. Just look at the battle score. 1)Why even include that when its bogus nonsense?

2)Is there any reason at all to think that they will get the Elo right and that it will improve the game? Who will it improve the game for and how? Apart from brand new players that is but they are not the only ones that need an improved gaming experience with this game.

1)It's a starting place for the new system to grow from?

2) Not the first time no. I don't think they will. I work in prototype for the car industry. Wanna guess how many time engineers get a job done right the first time???? Wanna guess how many times a engine program gets a redesign/tweak? Here's a hint The designs I'm working on now, will be in 2016 car lines.

[Ilwrath]

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

The implications are that you've lost faith in the developers. That's unfortunate but admittedly a big danger to letting players into a game in beta. We're probably 6-12 months away from what PGI would consider a finished product, still releasing core content and balancing basic functions.

Right now its the lack of maps that is getting old. And I am starting to strongly dislike some of the maps we have right now. Dislike them strongly enough to not reinstall when my river city night sadly got corrupted.

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Here's the thing about what Elo will do. It will effectively break people out roughly into groups of comparable skill for matchmaking both with you and against you. This means that you won't drop against 4x or 8x teams of highly competitive players unless you are one yourself. It also means that you'll drop on the same side as people comparably skilled as yourself.

That will help some but I fear that you will still get the "only pubs" on one side problem and if that remains, nothing is really fixed.

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

The people who will get punished the worst are actually premade groups. Most the people with an 80% success rate because they are dropping with teams against less skilled opponents are going to have a very bad couple of weeks of getting rolled. They're only going to drop in their groups against very skilled, very competitive other groups and that's going to shake the

But there will be a stat-wipe. As I have understood it we will all start at the same elo-stat.

[Ilwrath]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

1)It's a starting place for the new system to grow from?

But its already in the game. Its called damage stat. Mostly my damage stat and score is pretty much equal. With the score somewhat higher. Last nite I had a game where my team got beaten pretty bad. I don't know what premade he plays on but "Calvin is a credit to the team" or something was on the other team and I am sure he is part of a premade.

But that was okay. It was not a bad match. I almost succeeded with a nice flank but messed up by doing it too late.

In the end I got 1 kill and 2 assists. With a 1k+ game score that was the highest in the match. But its bogus. They won and it was not even close. That tells me that the game score stat is worthless. Why even include it?

[Taizan]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

That tells me that the game score stat is worthless. Why even include it?

Damage / score won't be the only stat that gets included afaik.

[Bguk]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

But its already in the game. Its called damage stat. Mostly my damage stat and score is pretty much equal. With the score somewhat higher. Last nite I had a game where my team got beaten pretty bad. I don't know what premade he plays on but "Calvin is a credit to the team" or something was on the other team and I am sure he is part of a premade.

But that was okay. It was not a bad match. I almost succeeded with a nice flank but messed up by doing it too late.

In the end I got 1 kill and 2 assists. With a 1k+ game score that was the highest in the match. But its bogus. They won and it was not even close. That tells me that the game score stat is worthless. Why even include it?

As Joseph stated, they need to start somewhere. "Perfect" systems are not created on day one. They need time to grow, to show their imperfections so it can be adjusted for the better. As another poster stated, it looks like you've lost trust in the developers, or have grown stale on the current state of the game.

As for this comment you made earlier, "There is no place for the weak in war. Its a shame they can hide in premades in this game.", I find that one pretty ironic.

[MischiefSC]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Right now its the lack of maps that is getting old. And I am starting to strongly dislike some of the maps we have right now. Dislike them strongly enough to not reinstall when my river city night sadly got corrupted.



That will help some but I fear that you will still get the "only pubs" on one side problem and if that remains, nothing is really fixed.



But there will be a stat-wipe. As I have understood it we will all start at the same elo-stat.

Maps are a problem but we've got new ones coming in a few weeks. I can understand that it can get tiring to do the same thing again and again though. I've taken to just trying new tactics and going different places. With the change in color quality though I've noticed some new stuff - hit the cave in Forrest Colony without thermal on now. It's pretty cool. I've also discovered some new locations in Caustic Valley. If things are getting dull while waiting for new maps try changing up what you do on them.

Lots of premades are just friends dropping together without VOIP. I've done it a few times. The competitive teams will move into their own scale on Elo and that's great - the point is that an average team dropping against average pugs is still balanced - the team only qualifies as 'average' because of teamwork, the pugs are 'average' because they are better individual pilots. Entertainingly it's a bit of a Clan vs IS situation with pugs being the Clanners, only without all the crap that comes with it.

They are already gathering stats. In another thread one of the devs posted that they're already compiling data for it to get a baseline for starting Elo stats. There will be a week or two of craziness as it all settles out but when you'll have teams used to 80% or more success rate suddenly happy to finally settle in at 50% after a few dozen 20 to 30% win rate days, it will be glorious. Think about what this is going to do to their KDRs. Elo is going to perpetually and forever skew win/loss and KDR towards 50% win/loss and around a 1.5 (if you never die on games that you win, having a win/loss of 50%).

My statsases. My Precious Statssss!

It can get very easy to get disenchanted with games, to want something to be different every time you play at it can seem like it never changes since you might play a dozen times a day but change only happens at best once a month. Take a break if you need to but the game does and will change. You don't have to be patient, but it helps. Elo will be a great thing though. Just you watch.

Edited by MischiefSC, 07 February 2013 - 06:32 AM.