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#301 Ghogiel

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostJyi, on 08 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, he's more like an armchair mechwarrior. The point was, you don't really seem to have experience in the particular area we are talking about.

And yes, while I see your statistics are quite impressive (with the exception of k/d, which was ridicilously easy to abuse in CB, and thus really means nothing), according to your own statement, you've never played in a team. Thus, you don't really even know how different premade 8v8 is compared to any of the other alternatives MWO had in place before.

Anyways, I'm interested, so lets analyze your stats here: 2:1 win/loss seems about right if you were a really damn good player. Considering that even the worst players may randomly get in groups that have awesome players, a win/loss -ratio when pugging is quite dependant on luck. But obviously, a very good player can turn an average or even a bad group to a decent one with some work.

However, the way it usually works in MWO is different, especially back in CB where pretty much every match had at least one person on one side disconnect or sit AFK in base for whatever reasons they had.

The way pugs usually go, even if there's one really good player on one side, is like this: the good player may try to communicate, but probably doesn't bother, knowing no one will listen. Then there's this other dude, who thinks he's also a damn good player, and he shouts out, starting right from the get go, these ridicilous commands, probably with CAPS on, like "EVERYONE GO GLINE". And even if some people bother listening, others will not, which ends up splitting the group. Now that the, lets call it "main group" (those who were listeninging to MR HOTSHOT COMMANDER WITH HIS CAPS ON), has actually waddled towards their desired direction, the MR HOTSHOT COMMANDER is simply done giving commands. And that's pretty much what everyone expects nowadays. That's the extent of "lets device a cool strategy" in the minds of most pugs.

But now that the main group is where they were commanded, they find themselves wondering what they should do next. Suddenly they need to think for themselves, and usually they ALL develop their own CRAZILY good tactic that'll work like a charm in their head. Then they'll just skip telling it to others, because.. well, they wouldn't listen anyway (and they probably wouldn't). All this boils down to this: the main group probably waddles in somewhat similar direction, and starts shooting at first enemy they see. In an awful lot of cases that first enemy is just the spearhead of the whole enemy team, so lets assume it is in this case as well. So our main group starts shooting at this first enemy they see, that being the spearhead of the whole enemy team, then one of them, his name being Jimmy Waffles Kerensky, gives chace, because he's like a clanner and stuff, and clanners are aggressive and **** and he's having some cool clanner Trial of something or another in middle of the battle field.

The next guy, Lt Pantless, hangs back, adapting to that tactic he was earlier thinking of. And the last couple of people here, lets say it's 3 of them, including the MR HOTSHOT COMMANDER, who's name is actually Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao (who by the way thinks that since he got his group this far, he has done enough, and inside his own head goes like "AAAAWWW YEEEEAAA.. LIKE A BOSS!"); well, him and xyt the 24th and PandaOnANuclearSub will just follow Lt Pantless like a sheep, as Lt Pantless is actually just the mech in front of them, and his mech has a pro paint, so he must be good.

And all goes well until Jimmy Waffles Kerensky runs into the whole enemy team. Then Lt Pantless decides to reveal his master plan, which is to tactically stay in cover, while Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao, like the boss he is, just rushes after Jimmy Waffles Kerensky, because he's just that badass and also a clanner. xyt the 24th runs away in panic and PandaOnANuclearSub stays with Lt Pantless.

By this time, Jimmy Waffles Kerensky is dead and cursing at "freebirth scum", after which he proceeds to disconnect from the game. And 15 seconds later Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao is dead too. They got 0 kills. He also proceeds to curse at "freebirth scum" and disconnects. Lt Pantless is still hanging to his tactic, which at this point is pretty much sitting put and doing nothing, but PandaOnANuclearSub has realized he may still be able to stay alive and sneakily runs into a map corner in his Dragon and shuts down there and hopes no one finds him. Lt Pantless is now alone versus the whole enemy team.
During these events, the following has happened on the other side: the 3 others in the game, WulfWolfenElementalWolf in his Stalker, 2GrandmasAndACup in his COM 2D and MrHappyponyRainbows in his RVN 4X. The 2 lights, instead of scouting and going for the completely unguarded enemy cap, have stuck with the assault, which is a full LRM Stalker that goes around 48 kph, and they have reached the upper city, which is, incidentally almost as far as possible from the "main group". The LRM boat starts spouting in chat "PLZ MARK TARGETS" while the lights, realizing half their team is dead and the enemy hasn't lost a single mech, start to go for the enemy base cap.

On their way, the lights encounter xyt the 24th and he joins with them, still shaken from his last encounter. They all decide to go for the enemy base, but xyt the 24th is running a trial Catapult K2 and quickly gets left behind and swarmed by the enemy who have by now killed Lt Pantless - who was by the way a pretty decent player and even managed to kill the enemy stock Hunchback 4G that was pretty damaged by Jimmy Waffles Kerensky and Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao. With xyt the 24th dead there are now 3 mechs left, but one of them is still hiding in a corner of the map, shut down. The 2 lights have reached the cap and almost actually won the game for their team, but at the last moment, the 2 enemy lights, 2 RVN 3L's, come and simply dominate these poor souls, only to have their kills stolen by a Cicada 2A with 4 Machineguns and a TAG. An epic accomplishent, now that you look at it.

Now there are only two mechs in the game, WulfWolfenElementalWolf in his Stalker and PandaOnANuclearSub the Dragon shut down in the far corner of the map. And the enemy, not bothering to search for them simply decide to move and cap. By this time, WulfWolfenElementalWolf is still asking for someone to TAG people in chat. Game over!

Now, DrxAbstract, insert yourself into this (not at all too uncommon match) and replace any of the pilots and tell me how you manage to get a 7,51 kdr. Because this is what pug matches usually are.

I didn't even read this post, I just wanted to quote it because it was huge.

#302 Mechteric

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:49 PM

Mechwarrior 4 invented poptarts... damn you Mechwarrior 4 and your progeny!

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 08 February 2013 - 07:49 PM.


#303 NKAc Street

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostKaziganthi, on 08 February 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:




hmm people said the same about LRM's and learning to adapt and look what happened



again see what happened to LRM's



There can be legitamate gripes, poptarting is a tactic not something truly overpowered or ridiculous. At one time lrms would go over a building then go straight down and focus all on someones head. That is a reasonable concern for a change because it was dumb and inconsistant with true weapon balance. But to think PGI needs to nerf someone tactics is ridiculous.

#304 Wispsy

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:58 PM

View PostJyi, on 08 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, he's more like an armchair mechwarrior. The point was, you don't really seem to have experience in the particular area we are talking about.

And yes, while I see your statistics are quite impressive (with the exception of k/d, which was ridicilously easy to abuse in CB, and thus really means nothing), according to your own statement, you've never played in a team. Thus, you don't really even know how different premade 8v8 is compared to any of the other alternatives MWO had in place before.

In 8v8, for your information, LRM's are pretty much a rarity. Why? Because there's no good way to use them. Good groups simply avoid staying in line of sight long enough to get hit by LRM's. And if there are enemy mechs with TAGS.. well, they can run around with a TAG and try to keep someone tagged. Lets assume there are 2 lights with TAG and they are tagging 2 unaware enemy Atlases. They'll get noticed pretty soon when people realize the LRM's just keep coming even into cover. If not even before, because a good 8man usually has a couple of lights with ECM running around, scouting for things like this. So, when they get noticed, regardless of how, the enemy 2 lights WILL be the ones chasing them. And when that happens they can't keep tagging the Atlases. If they want to fight the other lights, they can try to TAG those.. but good luck at that, since TAG doesn't work inside ECM's radius, only outside. Or they can try to fight, but since they wasted a slot for TAG, they won't have as much firepower. If they are smart, they'll get chased away and that's the end of their TAGgin adventure there.


Anyways, I'm interested, so lets analyze your stats here: 2:1 win/loss seems about right if you were a really damn good player. Considering that even the worst players may randomly get in groups that have awesome players, a win/loss -ratio when pugging is quite dependant on luck. But obviously, a very good player can turn an average or even a bad group to a decent one with some work.

However, the way it usually works in MWO is different, especially back in CB where pretty much every match had at least one person on one side disconnect or sit AFK in base for whatever reasons they had.

The way pugs usually go, even if there's one really good player on one side, is like this: the good player may try to communicate, but probably doesn't bother, knowing no one will listen. Then there's this other dude, who thinks he's also a damn good player, and he shouts out, starting right from the get go, these ridicilous commands, probably with CAPS on, like "EVERYONE GO GLINE". And even if some people bother listening, others will not, which ends up splitting the group. Now that the, lets call it "main group" (those who were listeninging to MR HOTSHOT COMMANDER WITH HIS CAPS ON), has actually waddled towards their desired direction, the MR HOTSHOT COMMANDER is simply done giving commands. And that's pretty much what everyone expects nowadays. That's the extent of "lets device a cool strategy" in the minds of most pugs.

But now that the main group is where they were commanded, they find themselves wondering what they should do next. Suddenly they need to think for themselves, and usually they ALL develop their own CRAZILY good tactic that'll work like a charm in their head. Then they'll just skip telling it to others, because.. well, they wouldn't listen anyway (and they probably wouldn't). All this boils down to this: the main group probably waddles in somewhat similar direction, and starts shooting at first enemy they see. In an awful lot of cases that first enemy is just the spearhead of the whole enemy team, so lets assume it is in this case as well. So our main group starts shooting at this first enemy they see, that being the spearhead of the whole enemy team, then one of them, his name being Jimmy Waffles Kerensky, gives chace, because he's like a clanner and stuff, and clanners are aggressive and **** and he's having some cool clanner Trial of something or another in middle of the battle field.

The next guy, Lt Pantless, hangs back, adapting to that tactic he was earlier thinking of. And the last couple of people here, lets say it's 3 of them, including the MR HOTSHOT COMMANDER, who's name is actually Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao (who by the way thinks that since he got his group this far, he has done enough, and inside his own head goes like "AAAAWWW YEEEEAAA.. LIKE A BOSS!"); well, him and xyt the 24th and PandaOnANuclearSub will just follow Lt Pantless like a sheep, as Lt Pantless is actually just the mech in front of them, and his mech has a pro paint, so he must be good.

And all goes well until Jimmy Waffles Kerensky runs into the whole enemy team. Then Lt Pantless decides to reveal his master plan, which is to tactically stay in cover, while Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao, like the boss he is, just rushes after Jimmy Waffles Kerensky, because he's just that badass and also a clanner. xyt the 24th runs away in panic and PandaOnANuclearSub stays with Lt Pantless.

By this time, Jimmy Waffles Kerensky is dead and cursing at "freebirth scum", after which he proceeds to disconnect from the game. And 15 seconds later Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao is dead too. They got 0 kills. He also proceeds to curse at "freebirth scum" and disconnects. Lt Pantless is still hanging to his tactic, which at this point is pretty much sitting put and doing nothing, but PandaOnANuclearSub has realized he may still be able to stay alive and sneakily runs into a map corner in his Dragon and shuts down there and hopes no one finds him. Lt Pantless is now alone versus the whole enemy team.
During these events, the following has happened on the other side: the 3 others in the game, WulfWolfenElementalWolf in his Stalker, 2GrandmasAndACup in his COM 2D and MrHappyponyRainbows in his RVN 4X. The 2 lights, instead of scouting and going for the completely unguarded enemy cap, have stuck with the assault, which is a full LRM Stalker that goes around 48 kph, and they have reached the upper city, which is, incidentally almost as far as possible from the "main group". The LRM boat starts spouting in chat "PLZ MARK TARGETS" while the lights, realizing half their team is dead and the enemy hasn't lost a single mech, start to go for the enemy base cap.

On their way, the lights encounter xyt the 24th and he joins with them, still shaken from his last encounter. They all decide to go for the enemy base, but xyt the 24th is running a trial Catapult K2 and quickly gets left behind and swarmed by the enemy who have by now killed Lt Pantless - who was by the way a pretty decent player and even managed to kill the enemy stock Hunchback 4G that was pretty damaged by Jimmy Waffles Kerensky and Star Captain Martha Kerensky Steiner-Liao. With xyt the 24th dead there are now 3 mechs left, but one of them is still hiding in a corner of the map, shut down. The 2 lights have reached the cap and almost actually won the game for their team, but at the last moment, the 2 enemy lights, 2 RVN 3L's, come and simply dominate these poor souls, only to have their kills stolen by a Cicada 2A with 4 Machineguns and a TAG. An epic accomplishent, now that you look at it.

Now there are only two mechs in the game, WulfWolfenElementalWolf in his Stalker and PandaOnANuclearSub the Dragon shut down in the far corner of the map. And the enemy, not bothering to search for them simply decide to move and cap. By this time, WulfWolfenElementalWolf is still asking for someone to TAG people in chat. Game over!

Now, DrxAbstract, insert yourself into this (not at all too uncommon match) and replace any of the pilots and tell me how you manage to get a 7,51 kdr. Because this is what pug matches usually are.


Wispsy runs up to E5 and takes out the enemy mechs 1-4 at a time as the rest die in their various positions.

#305 Greyfyl

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:46 PM

View PostTeralitha, on 08 February 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:


Your kidding right? poptarting is a noob tactic and is so easy to beat...... if you cant even beat a poptarting noob.... then yea... this isnt your game.

Note - poptarting is not the same thing as jump sniping. But either way, I am just ... I dont know... I guess amazed that this is even considered a problem here.


Think pretty highly of yourself don't you? I love MW geeks/elitists.

If you had actually read my posts you would have seen where I said this wasn't a problem YET. For someone with a boatload of arrogance you sure don't have very good reading comprehension.

#306 Kaziganthi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:47 PM

View PostNKAc Street, on 08 February 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:



There can be legitamate gripes, poptarting is a tactic not something truly overpowered or ridiculous. At one time lrms would go over a building then go straight down and focus all on someones head. That is a reasonable concern for a change because it was dumb and inconsistant with true weapon balance. But to think PGI needs to nerf someone tactics is ridiculous.



Yes we all remember the 2 day bug which was fixed...in 2 days. Why do people always go back to that period when trying to claim LRM's are overpowered.

#307 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 08 February 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 4 invented poptarts... damn you Mechwarrior 4 and your progeny!



False, MechWarrior 3 is where it started with JJ + Hills and LRMs with 3rd person.

Remember, poptarting is the derogatory of abusing 3rd person view behind a hill while jumping up and down. Anyone can do it, and is a high reward, low skill tactic.

Jump Sniping, also just as old -- is the use of movement and battle awareness to constantly jump in and out of cover to get shots in and force an enemy back. It does not rely on camping behind a single hill or peice of cover and does require a bit of skill to keep in range and keep the pressure on the enemy while staying just out of range of their brawlers or light mechs.

MechWarrior 2 it would have, but the maps were mostly flat and it was more effective to spam Mplas with the directional Jump Jets.

Jump Sniping is such an old tactic its scary.

Edited by mwhighlander, 08 February 2013 - 08:59 PM.


#308 juxstapo

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostZ0MBIE Y0SHI, on 08 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

This is my new favorite topic. I'm learning about the interwebs, watching people complain about poptarting, and of course good old fashioned smack talk amongst clans, freebirth ninnys and mercs.

It's like I'm on the mektek forums during the golden age of MW4!

Good times, gooood times. :lol:
I've been sayin' with each successive patch / update/ fix, we've been getting closer and closer to mw4... thank god.

Edit* just seeing the screenname "mwhighlander" reminds me of happy times, that was the first cat I played mw4 against @ mektek. Yay!

Edited by juxstapo, 08 February 2013 - 09:10 PM.


#309 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:13 PM

View Postjuxstapo, on 08 February 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Good times, gooood times. :lol:
I've been sayin' with each successive patch / update/ fix, we've been getting closer and closer to mw4... thank god.

Edit* just seeing the screenname "mwhighlander" reminds me of happy times, that was the first cat I played mw4 against @ mektek. Yay!


A much better version of Mech4, thankfully -- with more sim elements while keeping all that sweet action.

Oh right, MechWarrior has always been an action-sim. Makes sense, I suppose. :P

#310 Soulscour

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:33 PM

View PostchiXnhawk, on 08 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

I can't wait until you bragging poptarting teams meet us. That's when the QQing will hit the fan. KaoS is on another level right now. We're always a month / month and a half ahead of every trend. Most teams see this stuff first in matches against us. Whispy has seen us a few times in his 3D. If you want to see the OP way to run them or the OP way to counter them join RHoD.


So basically you were poptarting when they did not have the improved heat efficiency on PPC or the improved jumpjet physics. There is a reason people are doing this now after the patch. Before you were just running unoptimal builds. I do not consider that to be ahead of the game. Its true there is an easy counter to poptarting. You didn't come up with that either.

#311 Teralitha

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:50 PM

View PostSoulscour, on 08 February 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:


So basically you were poptarting when they did not have the improved heat efficiency on PPC or the improved jumpjet physics. There is a reason people are doing this now after the patch. Before you were just running unoptimal builds. I do not consider that to be ahead of the game. Its true there is an easy counter to poptarting. You didn't come up with that either.


Let them brag all they want.... what they dont realize is there are other teams and players out there lightyears ahead of them in tactics that could care less about it, because this game isnt near finished, and the metagame is going to change time and time again until it is. They want to brag about how great they are now... let them. It means very little at this time and nothing to chest beat about.

Edited by Teralitha, 08 February 2013 - 09:51 PM.


#312 chiXnhawk

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostSoulscour, on 08 February 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:


So basically you were poptarting when they did not have the improved heat efficiency on PPC or the improved jumpjet physics. There is a reason people are doing this now after the patch. Before you were just running unoptimal builds. I do not consider that to be ahead of the game. Its true there is an easy counter to poptarting. You didn't come up with that either.


As soon as the 3D came out we were doing it. If you join a team and then a tournament you would have noticed.

#313 Wispsy

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

View PostchiXnhawk, on 08 February 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:


As soon as the 3D came out we were doing it. If you join a team and then a tournament you would have noticed.


As were 50% of the sniper player base...

#314 chiXnhawk

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:59 PM

I must lead a sheltered MWO existence then.

#315 Wispsy

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:06 AM

Apparently so, enjoy your fall.

#316 Multitallented

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:30 AM

Haters gunna hate :)
Posted Image

Edited by Multitallented, 09 February 2013 - 12:37 AM.


#317 DrxAbstract

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:35 AM

View PostJyi, on 08 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

*snip*


Actually it was CB up until the gateway issue a couple weeks ago. Yeah, winning in a PUG is dependent on some luck, moreso than a premade. KDR being easy to abuse, however... Getting stuck in a game doomed to failure from the start is commonplace, but your scenario itself is a rarity. Sure it happens, but the times where they stuck together during their aimless wander happened far more often.

Cant really insert myself into that scenario because none of them apply. Now my experience with 8v8 premade in MWO being limited? Certainly. My experience playing as a team in a multitude of others games, however, not so much. It isnt any different; Pick a strategy, watch the enemy, adapt and overcome... Pretty basic, nothing about MWO sets it apart as requiring some new and advanced tactical thinking, that and the strategies employed here and every other team game are thousands of years old in essence. Only thing that changes is the medium.

#318 Jay Kerensky

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:52 AM

View PostJyi, on 07 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Kerenskys.. Kerenskys everywhere..

I just have one question: have you ever heard of condoms?


I resemble that remark!

#319 Protection

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:58 AM

View PostJyi, on 07 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Kerenskys.. Kerenskys everywhere..

I just have one question: have you ever heard of condoms?



View PostJay Kerensky, on 09 February 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:


I resemble that remark!


The Kerenskies are Catholic?

#320 idle crow

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:31 AM

Anyone who played MW4 knows all about jump sniping. I'm glad to see it back into the game. Looking forward to some medium or assault mechs that can do it to.





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