139 replies to this topic

[Dogan]

Clan tech was power creep in Battletech. It was balanced by the deployment disparity (Comstar 6, Clan 5, IS 4) and their single combatant honor system (1on1, direct fire, no gimmicks). Clans bid down to win the honor of deployment and the only way to reliably represent that with this game is matchmaker disparity.

1 clan mech will have to equal 1.5 is mechs. So if we're still doing 8 man drops and its Clan vs IS, it should be 5 to 8's. Previously I thought repair & reload was gonna offset Clan tech as players wouldn't be able to afford to keep running them due to economics. That has since been removed. I wouldn't mind seeing Clan vs Clan matches though at the full 8 (or rather 10) strength.

So to summarize.
IS vs IS = 8 on 8 (or 12 on 12 should we get there)
Clan vs IS = 5 on 8
Clan vs Clan = 10 on 10

No Clan tech in IS chassis, Lostech ok according to timeline

Dogan
IS vs IS = beginner mode, Clan vs Clan = hard mode, Clan vs IS = elite mode.

Clan tech was power creep in Battletech. It was balanced by the deployment disparity (Comstar 6, Clan 5, IS 4) and their single combatant honor system (1on1, direct fire, no gimmicks). Clans bid down to win the honor of deployment and the only way to reliably represent that with this game is matchmaker disparity.

1 clan mech will have to equal 1.5 is mechs. So if we're still doing 8 man drops and its Clan vs IS, it should be 5 to 8's. Previously I thought repair & reload was gonna offset Clan tech as players wouldn't be able to afford to keep running them due to economics. That has since been removed. I wouldn't mind seeing Clan vs Clan matches though at the full 8 (or rather 10) strength.

So to summarize.
IS vs IS = 8 on 8 (or 12 on 12 should we get there)
Clan vs IS = 5 on 8
Clan vs Clan = 10 on 10

No Clan tech in IS chassis, Lostech ok according to timeline

Dogan
IS vs IS = beginner mode, Clan vs Clan = hard mode, Clan vs IS = elite mode.

[FupDup]

5v8 battles probably wouldn't work out as well in practice as they sound on paper.

Let's take a look at most of our current maps: they're small and filled with tons 'o cover. While this does offset the Clanners' range advantage, it also offsets the IS's numbers advantage. Try and get 8 mechs to all shoot at the same target. It ain't so easy due to needing all 8 people actually act simultaneously as well as cram all 8 mechs into a small area. Getting only 5 mechs to do it would be much easier because you don't occupy nearly as much space and have less room for human error. If the Spheroids get only 7 mechs or fewer on one target, they would be at a noticeable firepower advantage (assuming 5 Clanners = 8 IS, each Clanner is worth 1.6 IS mechs). Something also ignored is that the Clanner's firepower advantage would stack exponentially when used in numbers.

You would need at least double the IS mechs as Clan mechs to make this work. 12 v 10 is even worse than 5 v 8 because it falsely assumes that a Clan mech is only 20% better than a Spheroid mech.


Zellbrigen would not fix this. The moment the enemy breaks Zell is the moment that the Clanners can break it in retaliation. The only way Clanners would be obliged to follow Zell is if their enemy IS decided to adhere to it as well...and that spells a painful defeat for the Spheroids by being slaughtered one-by-one.


Asymmetrical army sizes works well in strategy games like Starcraft and Dawn of War. MWO is not a strategy game. It is a slow-paced shooter with mechs. In the example of Starcraft, it is well known that the Zerg faction relies on large numbers to win while the Protoss use high-cost, high-quality units instead. But an army of Protoss facing off against a larger army of Zerg is still fundamentally a 1-on-1 fight because there are only two players; one commander per army. In MWO, each player controls only one unit.




Clan tech is gonna be one helluva shitstorm to implement, that's for sure. Either we'll get asymetrical team sizes that favor one faction over the other (most likely Clanners) to please the TT veterans but annoy the people who care more about gameplay, OR we'll get some minor tradeoffs (i.e. longer beam duration on Clan lasers, such as 1.5s for a CERLL) that make the average player happy but completely **** off the TT veterans and cause them to burn down PGI's headquarters and murder their families. I don't see how any human beings could possibly pull this off without getting some serious rage and backlash.

Sticking to a 1:1 timeline was a mistake from the start. Any games that try this, such as WWII or other historical games, experience this same lack of being able to do anything other than what is written in history without causing backlash and violating the "sacred texts". This severely limits the choices that can be made by the developers and makes it much harder to make a good game.

Edited by FupDup, 26 February 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Congzilla, on 07 February 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

No, it really doesn't. Just let IS mechs use clan tech too and balance drops by BV.

Great idea! They'd have to get BV down pretty well though.

MLAS should be worth more than LL, high ping users with ballistics, ppc's or... anything should get a bonus, and ECM should multiply BV by oh, I dunno... 90.

[MechWarrior001347]

Make Clan Tech using Mechs worth 1.25 Is Tech mechs, when you Drop 5 Clan Tech Mechs on one Team there will be 6-7 IS Tech Mechs in the other Team, depending on the weight of the complete Team., the more Clan tech you Bring the lesser will be the count of the Machines on your Side to drop.
You can Use this Rule for both IS and Clans to provide Balance.

[Anony Mouse]

Sigifrid, on 07 February 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Only in inter-clan battles, and even then only in some circumstances. You forget that they did not follow those rules against the IS. Also, they definitely did not do 1v1 battles in the Battle of Tukayyid. Also, just because that is how they (sometimes) fight in lore does not mean that they did not have the capability to do so.

Know your lore before you try and use it to prove points.

Just wow. That is the epitome of hypocritcal rhetoric.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Zellbrigen was used against all opponents until after the truce of Tukayyid. Which going by the way the timeline is supposed to work here would be the end of May 2015. The important stipulation being that once an opponent broke Zell, a clan warrior was unrestricted, so if an inner sphere warrior fired on a second target while still engaged with their first opponent, or fired on an opponent already engaged with a different inner sphere mech, than all bets are off.

More importantly what makes any of us think Clan tech in MWO will be representative of traditional battletech Clan tech. We've already seen a whole slew of nerfs and buffs, why would clan tech be any different. I'm betting things will be balanced more or less, it won't be that hard to do.

And for those saying IS will need a two to one advantage etc etc, I don't think that will be the case, yes clan mechs tend be faster with better range. But most don't pack the all around punch that IS units do, and all are comparatively speaking under armored. Ultimately TT-BV would be a good place to start but with rate of fire and damage/range nerfs and buffs, it would have to change immensely to be applicable, hell CBills would be a better indicator than an unaltered TT-BV.

Really its just a matter of wait and see.

[Glythe]

Clan mechs cannot be bought with MC or else people will rage and a large number of people will quit. That goes against the very idea of this game not being pay to win.

Now then..... lets say they offered a few clan mechs a few months in advance of the release of the regular clan mechs. That would be ok. People who really wanted them would buy them. People who wanted to buy them with CB could wait until they were released. This would make them feel unique for a while.

Another option is to have players use GXP to unlock clan tech for a particular weight class. Imagine if you need to use 25,000 gxp to unlock light/medium/heavy or assault mechs. That makes them slightly exclusive as you need GXP for modules AND you need them for the right to purchase clan mechs for millions of CB.

IS and clan tech needs to be kept separate. It would be neat to have a clan engine for my Atlas.... but if I could do that why would I even bother to buy a clan mech and level it up?

Anony Mouse... let me introduce you to the clan mech I want most:

http://www.sarna.net...lf_%28Daishi%29

It's really not under-gunned at all.

Edited by Glythe, 27 February 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Anony Mouse]

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Anony Mouse... let me introduce you to the clan mech I want most:

http://www.sarna.net...lf_%28Daishi%29

It's really not under-gunned at all.

Thats why I said most, and I'm right. As someone said previously they are generally engineered for a single 1 vs 1 engagement. Not protracted free for alls like IS mechs. Look at the Summoner and Hellbringer, main-stays for all the Clans and undergunned compared to most IS units of the same weight. Also the ideology on a lot of Clan mechs seems to be "Bring one of everything", even from Variant to Variant, they don't tend to change roles entirely, only their emphasis, so instead of two LRM20s and two SRM2s, the short range version would be two SRM6s and two LRM5s and so on making the motif "Okay at everything Great at nothing"

[Grizley]

Anony Mouse, on 27 February 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

And for those saying IS will need a two to one advantage etc etc, I don't think that will be the case, yes clan mechs tend be faster with better range. But most don't pack the all around punch that IS units do, and all are comparatively speaking under armored. Ultimately TT-BV would be a good place to start but with rate of fire and damage/range nerfs and buffs, it would have to change immensely to be applicable, hell CBills would be a better indicator than an unaltered TT-BV.

Really its just a matter of wait and see.

Are you on drugs? Ton for ton NOTHING in the IS matches a Clan mechs firepower, under armored sometimes but not under gunned.

Here are some fun comparisons...

20 tons
Clan Fire Moth Prime: 2 ER Med Lasers (IS large lasers) SRM 6, SRM4, top speed 216kph.
IS Flea: 2 Med Pulse, Flamer, 2 SM Laser top speed 129

Winner Clan by a landslide, Alpha of 32 vs Alpha of 20. The Fire Moth also has speed, range and cooling on the Flea. The Flea has an extra 10 points of armor.

35 tons
Clan Adder Prime: 2 ER PPCs (IS Gauss rifles), flamer, Targeting computer (Probably replaced by something in MWO) top speed 97kph
IS Panther: 1 PPC, SRM4 top speed 64kph.

Winner Clan by an even bigger landslide, range alpha of 30 vs 10, close alpha of 32 vs 18, Adder wins on speed, range and heat again and adds an 11 point armor advantage.

50 tons
Clan Nova Prime: 12 ER Med lasers (IS Large Lasers) 86kph top speed
IS Crab: 2 Large lasers, 1 medium, 1 small, 86 kph top speed

Bahahahahaha, that is all. 84 vs 24. Nova also wins massively on armor and has triple the cooling.

65 tons
Clan Hellbringer: 2 ER PPCs, AMS, 3 ER Med (Is Large) lasers, Streak 6, targeting computer, 4 B-pods, ECM,Beagle Probe, 2 MG 86kph top speed
IS Warhammer 7M: 2 ER PPCs, AMS, 2 med lasers, SRM 6, 2MG 64kph top speed

Ok, I gave the IS a break here, Hellbringer Prime is a Warhammer, but 5 tons lighter. Long range alpha 30 vs 20, mid range alpha 51 vs 20, close range alpha 63 vs 42. Warhammer wins on armor by 32 points, which is not insignificant. However, keep in mind that it's heavier, slower and has zero E-war gear compared to the Hellbringer that has all of it. In addition the Hellbringer has 4 B-pods and a targeting computer that will probably not make it into MWO and will be replaced with something.

75 tons
Clan Timber Wolf: 2 ER Large laser (IS ER PPC+), 2 ER Med Laser (IS Large laser+), 1 Med Pulse, 2 LRM 20s, 2 MGs
IS nothing with remotely similar loadout that I can find.

The best comparison really is a Marauder with a pair of LRM20s glued on, but the Marauder still falls behind in speed, range, heat and the fact that it's 2 PPCs, 2 Mlas and Ac5 do nothing approaching the Timber Wolfs laser damage. The Timber Wolf outguns most IS assaults.

85 tons
Clan Warhawk Prime - 4 ER PPCs, LRM10, targeting computer, 64kph top speed
IS Awesome 9M - 3 ER PPCs, 2 STK 2, Med Pulse, Small Pulse 64kph top speed
IS Stalker 5M - 2 LRM10, 4 MLas, Narc, ER Large, 54kph top speed

The Awesome is slightly lighter, but more similar in loadout so I looked at them both.

Ranged alpha, Warhawk 70, Awesome 30, Stalker 20. Mid range alpha Stalker goes up to 28, close range alpha Warhawk 70, Awesome 45, Stalker 28.

Warhawk has twice the firepower in every situation other than the Awesome at close range, Warhawk wins on speed vs the Stalker and ties the Awesome. Warhawk has superior armor to either of the IS machines, and once again has a targeting computer that will be removed.


I'm not even going to bother trying to find anything that can stack up to a Dire Wolf for firepower, but I'll give a couple of the configs and you tell me which one is under gunned.

Prime:
4 ER Large lasers (IS Er PPCs)
4 Med Pulse (remember clan med pulse go out to 360m not 240m)
2 UAC 5
1 LRM10

A
1 Gauss
3 Large Pulse (600m range, not 300m like IS)
2 Streak 6
1 AMS

B
4 UAC/2
2 ER PPCs (15 damage a pop)
1 LB10-X
2 Mpulse
1 ER SLas (5 damage, 180m)

C
2 ER PPC
2 ATM 6 (Think a missile launcher that is a combination between SRM and LRM, up to 3 damage a missile at short range or 1 damage a missile beyond LRM range)
4 MPulse
1 STK 4
Targeting Computer
ECM

I mean really? That's an example of lacking punch? All book mechs tend to be light on armor, and the Omnis are certainly no worse than most.

[Royalewithcheese]

I'm personally a fan of the "different but balanced" angle. So maybe an ERPPC = 15 damage but ridiculous heat, Clan LRM = no minimum range, no targeting enemies behind cover, and so on. ER MdLas should be straight up better though, even if just by a little

[Karosma]

Apnu, on 07 February 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Here is the most feasible way to do for PGI is this, IMO.

Given: PGI wants this game to emulate the TT rules as much as possible.
Given: PGI wants this game to reflect BT lore as much as possible.
Given: Clans did not have lances of 4 mechs, but "stars" of 5.
Given: Clan combat doctrine tends to push the tonnage of a star down as opposed to up. (see the Bidding process)
Given: Clan combat doctrine wants pilots to fight in 1v1 battles that are mis-matched in terms of weight. (see Zellbrigen)

My suggestion of how to accomplish this:

Allow players to set their account to either Inner Sphere or Clan. Then insulate those two groups from each other for a while. Thus, clanners drop against clanners and freebirth scum against freebirth scum. Limit Clans to forming either 5 or 10 player teams. PUGs fill in the extra slots of 5 or 10. Limit clans to clan chassis and technology only, following all the TT rules for clan tech and omnimech abilities. Clans should also have cheaper costs for chassis since the warrior caste doesn't really worry about money and usually can pick any mech they want at any given time to pilot.

Inner Sphere players can group up in any combination they like up to 12. And proceed as we have been now in the current game state.

After each community solidifies, drop the curtan between them and begin the "invasion" that is allowing clan vs IS matches. Clans still have to drop in groups of 5 or 10, IS can go up to 12. For the clans, once they fire on a target, their computer will only target that one enemy. Even if that's a 100 ton Dire Wolf firing on a Commando. The IS is free to target and concentrate fire at will.

Clans earn bonus points for being under tonned. They suffer a penalty when out tonning the other team. Use ELO and match making tricks to help the clans find opponents who out ton them. This won't always work, and will simulate clans being able to succeed and fail at the bidding process with out forcing players to go through the process which is very formal and time consuming.

As the timeline progresses, allow IS players to salvage or buy clan tech for their mechs. Give IS players a slight chance to salvage a clan mech. For the clans, drop all the Zellbrigen rules and let them fight and concentrate fire at will, but still limit them to 5 and 10 player units. No IS salvage for clans. They should continue to have access to cheap chassis. Retain the bonus for victory while out tonned, but ditch the penalty for over tonning.

That's my idea. Feel free to critique it.

Sounds good, but being that PGI is keeping the timeline on a 1:1 ratio, they wouldn't have time to allow faction solidification to even out player numbers and such. Remember, the invasion is supposed to begin soon. Unless you know something we don't...

[Karosma]

CygnusX7, on 07 February 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

I'm so lost.
Not exactly lost but nOObs like me have no idea what half this stuff is..
Started reading the books but still.. wut?

Check out www.sarna.net. Also this for books to read: http://www.stargazer..._novel_list.htm

Sarna can give you a lot to know. Short story: Clans invaded the Inner Sphere with superior tech and warriors because they threw out materialist ideas, utilized caste hierarchies, and literally bred their warriors for their roles (mechwarriors, aerospace pilots, elementals, etc.) If you just started reading, the Kerensky Trilogy and Jade Phoenix Trilogy are your best bets on schooling up quick. I won't say more so I don't spoil the reading!

[Karosma]

AceTimberwolf, on 07 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

It is not until 3057/8 that IS. Forces are able to maintain and use clan tech effectively. People who only played comp games don't know that mw3 and mw4 take place in the future.

Very true. (Although I think it mentions the timeline in the game manual for MW3 ) But the salvaging has to start somewhere. Maybe PGI should have a low percentage chance of acquiring any clan tech if you play IS. Maybe like one percent.

[maxmarechal]

Narcisoldier, on 07 February 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Have clan mechs earn half the cbills that IS mechs earn. Because they fight for honor, not cash, right?

you always fight for what you lack the most...

[Xostriyad]

A BV system would go a long way to fix many of the issues people are struggling with on this thread.

Of course no reasonable person is suggesting we use the BV system pulled right out of TT and call it a day, the system would have to be tweaked quite a bit and honestly probably would go a long way to reeling in boating.

Example:
Have 8 medium lasers in the same location? Well that is certainly more than the sum of it's parts! Lets just add a little extra BV to bring it in line to a bit more balance.

Will people start playing the "BV game" and try to game the system that way? Well of course they would. People are playing the tonnage game right now. Gamers will always find ways to "game" the system to ensure victory. It's about finding a system that can be tweaked to introduce balance. The difference between a good stereo system and a bad one is the good ones typically have a bunch of ***** so you can fine tune your sound quality... where as your cheap systems have volume control and call it a day.

Sure there should still be weapon balance here and there, but we shouldn't try to bring all weapons to close to the same playing field since clan tech stuff will just make all this hard work go out the window and just confuse the hell out of the player base. I've seen people on here talk about ways to make clan tech balanced with IS tech! Good lord people! What an absolutely horrifying thought.
Can you imagine taking your car to a small Autocross club and when you take your car there they go "Yea, we stopped classifying cars. We are just going to like... fill your nicely tuned car there with rocks and **** so you and the guy in the station wagon are on equal footing instead of like... just giving him a few seconds of handicap like we normally do."


I would love to see asymmetrical battles of 5 vs 8... but with small maps that can get a bit stupid really fast.

10 vs 16 is probably a better number to hope for. Restrict it to large maps where the clan weapons will shine and the numerical superiority is more apparent.

However we are going to need extra filters. I have no confidence that the game will be ready for IS vs Clan out of the gate. It'll probably take months of balance with Clan vs Clan fights to get things settled. Also IS pilots should not be forced into a fight with clanners until the issues have been pounded out with volunteers.

I'd love to go up against clan mechs with a team of plucky IS pilots, but I can see how easily skill disparity and weapon imbalances will just infuriate new players or simply players in general that don't understand that it's supposed to be asymmetrical.

[Vodrin Thales]

I really dont see any way that clan tech can be "balanced" with IS tech. Clan tech was always intended to be superior. And personally I think balancing with numbers is a terrible idea. It will be nightmarishly hard to pull off, and how exactly do you code to ensure solo players dropping with clan mechs are only matched with others in clan gear?

I strongly suspect they will make clan tech universally available once it comes in, as the easiest and most effective way to balance superior weapons is to ensure everyone has equal access to them.

[Lege]

8vs5 or 16vs10, 12vs10 is clan win 99.9% of the time.
On a related note, I'd like to see the statistics of having ECM superiority on the outcome of a battle.
I'm sure it's a heavy weight, like changing the odds x2 or more.

[Grizley]

Edit by Mod

Hairicin

Anony Mouse, on 28 February 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

You're comparing cream of the crop Clan units with sub-par IS counterparts. Biased much? I mean really?
For ***** sake you can't compare a Flea to ANYTHING favorably. How about a Red Shift, or a LCT-5M. Not to mention the Fire Moth A B C E F K all suck.

Ok lets look at some of your examples...

LCT-5M: 1 ER Med, 4 ER Small 194 top speed.

Compared to the Fire Moth it is has a drastically lower max range, a long range alpha of 5 vs 14, a mid range of 5 vs 34 and a close range of 17vs 34. It's also slower it has half the cooling, etc. Do you really think the Fire Moth is "under gunned"? Yeah, there are configurations that are not meant so much for damage, though I think the LRM version could be extremely annoying, can't catch it and it can fling LRMs all day.

Anony Mouse, on 28 February 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

An Adder Prime is an overheating piece of crap, but compared to a Panther? An old school Panther too, how about a 12a (ERLL MPL SSRM4 TC) or a 13k (80+ kph, 240 meter jump Plasma Rifle, SRM4) instead? Or **** the ****** Panther, how about a Wolfhound or a Venom or an Owens?

Hi, it's 3050, the versions you're naming are available in 3062 and 3068 respectively. The Owens is a little better at 2058, but still 8 years off. The Only Wolfhound available in 3050 is the -1F so we'll look at that.

Wolfhound: 1 ER Large, 4 Med Lasers (1 rear but that will probably change in MWO), same speed as the Adder.

As usual the Adder has a range advantage, long range alphas are 30 vs 8, mid/close range 30 vs 28. The thing that is wrong with this comparison is you're comparing different roles, you're comparing a fire support mech (Adder) with a brawler (Wolfhound). As fire support the Wolfhound is an utter failure, it's about as good a brawler as an Adder though.

As far as overheating, in MWO there are 3 tons of targeting computer that need replaced. If you replace them with 3 heatsinks then an alpha from the Adder generates 30 heat compared to it's 28 heat dissipation. So every 8-10 rounds it only fires 1 ER PPC and the heat load is very reasonable.

Anony Mouse, on 28 February 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

I'm not going to pick apart your whole list, because your list is biased and self serving, also you don't know how to posit a counterpoint respectfully or honorably,

I took omnis at the bottom and top of their weight class and compared them to the most similar IS model available. In some cases it's very close, Hellbringer/Warhammer in some cases it's sort of close Adder/Panther in some there is really nothing too close Fire Moth/Flea.

You got owned, so you'll run off and cry, that's cool. Everyone knows you're mentally challenged when you say things like "Clan mechs are under gunned". On average they have twice the firepower of equivalent IS machines. And no, pointing at 3068 mechs doesn't help your case.

Edited by Hairicin, 01 March 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[Slater01]

Wyzak, on 07 February 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

There is no easy way to introduce Clan tech without a salvage system.
There is no easy way to make a salvage system at this juncture.

Best case - clan parts are prohibitively expensive so you have to grind a long time to get them - longer then the extra combat value - so that the worth is intrinsic.

Also, In order to make matches representative of the feel of Clan invasion, people should have to play X number of matches in IS tech chassis to qualify to play in a Clan chassis. People who want to play clan will play more often, resulting in a more realistic ratio of Inner Sphere chassis sightings.

Someone mentioned 5v8 (All Clan vs All IS)
This might work if every time 5 people had a chassis qualified to run, they got pooled together.
It seems unlikely however that 5 Ryokens (for example) could take on 8 similarly distributed IS chassis. IIRC the Clans despise electronic warfare (jamming) which is partially why the IS was able to turn the tide.

I agree, I don't think us "Mercs" as PGI calls us time and time again, will be able to buy Clan Mechs or tech. It sounds as if we can only get Clan tech by doing Clan missions. It would make sense and it would be balanced to have 2 factions fighting in IS vs IS(with limited clan tech) for control of planets. Perhaps a clan group in a high level Clan match (meaning they already have access to X amount of clan tech) would have a disadvantage verses their IS counterparts.

[Anony Mouse]

Grizley, on 28 February 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

You got owned, so you'll run off and cry, that's cool. Everyone knows you're mentally challenged when you say things like "Clan mechs are under gunned". On average they have twice the firepower of equivalent IS machines. And no, pointing at 3068 mechs doesn't help your case.

You can disagree all you want, thats fine you have a right to that. You're making idiotic comparisons and you're wrong but its your right. But its the way you do it man. Its worthless brain dead piece of **** trash talking internet tough guys like you that ruin the chances for intelligent conversations. You're incapable of positing a counterpoint on its own merits, you have to sprinkle it with "ownage" and "go cry now" ******** because you know your additions to a conversation won't stand on their own. So go ahead and throw the feces ape man, beat your chest and shake your e-peen at the crowd, whatever makes you feel like you "won". In the end you're still a waste of ******* space.

[Grizley]

Run along now, kid.

I posted a detailed mech by mech comparison. You posted a couple of references to invalid mechs for the time period and figured you would make up for your lack of facts with name calling. So I have laid out facts, you have cried and tried personal attacks, they don't work.

If you want to support your claim that Clan mechs are undergunned the first step would be to show a couple examples of IS mechs with more firepower than Clan Omnis. And no, picking one bad config doesn't prove anything.