68 replies to this topic

[Peter von Danzig]

IceSerpent, on 07 February 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

What exactly makes you think that you would be able to equip Clan weapons on an IS mech?

Why not? Anything else would totally ruin the game balance. Take a look on the clan 20lrm: The are lighter (5 tons instead of 10), need less hard point (4 instead of 5) and have no minimum range...

[Peter von Danzig]

Skadi, on 07 February 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Clan LRMS actualy are going to be the least of my worrys when it comes to clans...
Clan SSRM-6
3 tons
2 crit slots
4 heat
12 overall damage
available upon clan arrival.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM-6

Combo this with the Mad Dog (Vulture) A Varient, which has 6 missile slots, and as far as sarna is concered a ballistic and energy slot.

(even scarier when we look at the Dire Wolf, which i plan to use extensively when we get it, and for PGI's sake it better be the first clan assult, and anounced right after the Timber wolf, which is going to be the first clan mech...)

If you can get clan LRM, getting streak SRM doesn't make much sense to me. The Clan LRM would be the more powerful variant of what PGI made of streak SRM...

[qultar]

Natasha Kerensky, on 09 February 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Clan LRMs can be blind fired in TT.

Not by clan mechs under clan rules of warfare
As there is no honor in it
The only thing that will keep things fair is to keep clan
Mechs and weapons in clan hands under clan rules

[MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone]

like someone else said somewher else in another speculation thread,
"This isnt TT everything except for size and weight got changed, things have been changed to fit in the online enviroment like ECM for example"
so before you continue speculating, might aswel wait and see what PGI makes of it

[Thorn Hallis]

If you don't want to get hit by Clan weapons position yourself close to Terra. No Clans there.

[Anony Mouse]

FupDup, on 07 February 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Most of the "purists" crowd (which I'm not a part of) probably won't take too kindly to any piece of Clan equipment that is not better in every single humanly possible way over its IS counterpart. Suggesting a trade-off for using them, no matter how tiny or negligible it is, is automatic HERESY.

I'm hoping clan tech isn't available on IS machines. It has to be said that Clan machines have an ideology to them, that leaves them consistently underarmed and underarmored. They don't tend to be tactical machines but "One Man Armies". They tend to be comparatively quicker to their inner sphere counterparts (by weight) lightly armored, and armed in such a way as to fight at all ranges against any target. So you end up with mechs carrying SRMs and LRMs, long range direct fire weapons (ERPPC/ERLL/AC/2 etc) and machines guns and flamers, not exactly the end all be all of OP mechage.

Ti simplify they tend to be okay at everythign but not great at anything. If the hardpoints, and engine limits (minimums in this case) and armor maximums line up with this ideology than it should balance out in the end.

[Bad Andy]

but correct me if I'm wrong, by canon IS factions simply salvage clan mechs/tech and adapt it to their needs such that after a few years the clan s have lost most of the technological edge they started with?

[FupDup]

Bad Andy, on 10 February 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

but correct me if I'm wrong, by canon IS factions simply salvage clan mechs/tech and adapt it to their needs such that after a few years the clan s have lost most of the technological edge they started with?

Keywords: after a few years. With a 1:1 timeline, that's gonna be a looong time...

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Peter von Danzig, on 10 February 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Why not? Anything else would totally ruin the game balance. Take a look on the clan 20lrm: The are lighter (5 tons instead of 10), need less hard point (4 instead of 5) and have no minimum range...

You didn't think that through - if you can mix tech (i.e. put Clan weapons on IS mech and vice versa), the variety would disappear and the "go-to" mech would be either an IS mech with Clan ballistics and missiles (due to it not being an omni and not having customization restrictions omnies normally have), or a Clan mech with a lot of energy hardpoints, like Nova, with IS weapons (due to lower heat).

[SixstringSamurai]

Skadi, on 07 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Bro... Do you even Clan XL?
or even Clan DH's...

psssh.....Skadi doesn't know....

[Skadi]

Peter von Danzig, on 10 February 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

If you can get clan LRM, getting streak SRM doesn't make much sense to me. The Clan LRM would be the more powerful variant of what PGI made of streak SRM...

You can much more easily boat streak six's, if you try to boat 6 Clrm-15's on a mech your not gonna have much left to work with.

[StormPaladin99]

speaking of missles whats going to be the best counter is laser ams when it arrives

[SixstringSamurai]

Stormagedon99, on 10 February 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

speaking of missles whats going to be the best counter is laser ams when it arrives

Except it produces 7 points of heat (a large laser) on top of everything else the mech has equiped. Which means you would need 17 HS dedicated to it to stay heat neutral. The clan version generates 5 so 10 HS to stay neutral. So if your build runs heat heavy your going to run into problems. That and it doesn't come into play for IS forces until 3054 as research, 3059 for production. While you could technically salvage it from a clan mech after 3048, you would probably have no understanding of the tech or systems to be able to integrate it into your existing systems. Otherwise why wouldn't you not have it already as mounting a laser to a tripod shouldn't be any harder then a machine gun.

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 10 February 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

qultar, on 10 February 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Not by clan mechs under clan rules of warfare
As there is no honor in it
The only thing that will keep things fair is to keep clan
Mechs and weapons in clan hands under clan rules

I suspect that what was meant is that "normal/standard" Clan LRMs (unlike the later (and Clan-exclusive) ATMs and Streak LRMs) are still capable of indirect fire (and of having that capability augmented by systems like TAG and Narc beacons) in addition to also being capable of direct-fire operations.

On top of that, Clan LRM launchers are typically lighter (less tonnage required) and smaller (fewer criticals required) than their IS counterparts, and the Clan LRMs themselves have no minimum range.
However, the Clan LRMs canonically have the same max. effective ranges as their IS counterparts (630 meters (21 hexes) "long" range in TT, 1000 meters in MWO), produce the same amount of heat and damage per salvo, and carry the same number of missiles per ton.

Moreover, the IS eventually (in 3058) deploys both its Enhanced LRMs (half the minimum range, same max. range, same damage and heat, can still use Artemis/Narc/TAG, can still use special munitions, and same ammo per ton; heavier and bulkier than standard LRM launchers) and its Extended LRMs (50% greater effective range than standard LRMs (1140 meters in TT, ~1500 meters in MWO); heavier and bulkier than standard LRMs, almost-doubled minimum range (300 meters), not compatible with Artemis/Narc/TAG, cannot use special munitions, and less ammo per ton).

Though, What I think would be really interesting is if the Devs were to make it such that the game applied BattleTech's "hot-loading" rules (described on pages 102-103 of TacOps) to Clan LRMs as the means of explaining their lack of minimum range.

Quote

The minimum range of LRMs and ATMs in the standard rules reflects the time it takes for the internal guidance systems to lock on to targets and for the explosive payloads to arm. Hot-loading enables a player to arm his LRM or ATM warheads before firing the missiles.

-----

Because hot-loaded LRMs and ATMs are fully armed in the launcher, any critical hit to the launcher triggers a missile explosion that destroys all of the launcher’s critical slots. Also, the body location of the launcher takes damage equal to the maximum potential damage of the missile flight. For example, an exploding hot-loaded LRM 10 launcher causes 10 damage points to the internal structure of the location where it’s mounted. Any time a hot-loaded missile launcher explodes, the controlling player must roll 2D6. On a result of 2 through 5, the destruction of the launcher triggers an ammunition explosion in a single ammunition slot in that location (randomly determined), if any exist in that location.

Basically, a critical hit on the launcher itself would have the same effect as a critical hit on an ammunition bin (where, by contrast, an IS launcher (with its missiles not armed before firing) that takes a critical hit would be disabled/destroyed, but would not explode).
Hehehe...

[Minthos]

Strum Wealh, on 10 February 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

I suspect that what was meant is that "normal/standard" Clan LRMs (unlike the later (and Clan-exclusive) ATMs and Streak LRMs) are still capable of indirect fire (and of having that capability augmented by systems like TAG and Narc beacons) in addition to also being capable of direct-fire operations.

On top of that, Clan LRM launchers are typically lighter (less tonnage required) and smaller (fewer criticals required) than their IS counterparts, and the Clan LRMs themselves have no minimum range.
However, the Clan LRMs canonically have the same max. effective ranges as their IS counterparts (630 meters (21 hexes) "long" range in TT, 1000 meters in MWO), produce the same amount of heat and damage per salvo, and carry the same number of missiles per ton.

Moreover, the IS eventually (in 3058) deploys both its Enhanced LRMs (half the minimum range, same max. range, same damage and heat, can still use Artemis/Narc/TAG, can still use special munitions, and same ammo per ton; heavier and bulkier than standard LRM launchers) and its Extended LRMs (50% greater effective range than standard LRMs (1140 meters in TT, ~1500 meters in MWO); heavier and bulkier than standard LRMs, almost-doubled minimum range (300 meters), not compatible with Artemis/Narc/TAG, cannot use special munitions, and less ammo per ton).

Though, What I think would be really interesting is if the Devs were to make it such that the game applied BattleTech's "hot-loading" rules (described on pages 102-103 of TacOps) to Clan LRMs as the means of explaining their lack of minimum range.
Basically, a critical hit on the launcher itself would have the same effect as a critical hit on an ammunition bin (where, by contrast, an IS launcher (with its missiles not armed before firing) that takes a critical hit would be disabled/destroyed, but would not explode).
Hehehe...

I like it, but let the user toggle it in battle.

[Strum Wealh]

Minthos, on 10 February 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

I like it, but let the user toggle it in battle.

Assuming the "toggle" is in reference to the hot-loading idea, I must say that I partially disagree.

As previously noted, Clan LRM launchers would be the equal or better to their IS counterparts in every way - they are capable of both direct and indirect fire, have the same max. effective ranges as their IS counterparts (630 meters (21 hexes) "long" range in TT, 1000 meters in MWO), produce the same amount of heat and damage per salvo, and carry the same number of missiles per ton, and are lighter (less tonnage required) and smaller (fewer criticals required) than their IS counterparts, and the Clan LRMs themselves have no minimum range.
If mixed-tech is allowed and made relatively easy (and with R&R not likely to come back anytime soon, if ever (according to AtD 31)), there would be essentially no reason to ever take an IS LRM launcher if its Clan counterpart is available.

By using that portion of the hot-loading rule (modified to be a toggleable quality for IS LRM launchers and always-on for Clan LRM launchers), it creates an advantage (a single advantage, but an advantage nonetheless) for the IS LRM launchers over their Clan counterparts: IS launchers can trade safety (risking splash damage from their own missiles as well as risking even greater damage to themselves if the launcher itself takes damage) for close-range combat capability, while Clan launchers always have that risk in place (as the single disadvantage that serves as the price paid for being equal or superior in all other aspects).

And on top of that, it would be a disadvantage that would be at least partially mitigated on Clan 'Mechs anyway, since they get weightless and volumeless Clan CASE in all sections of the 'Mech (as opposed to IS 'Mechs, which can take Case only in the torso sections, and IS CASE, which consumes both tonnage and criticals).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 10 February 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

Note that all of this is heresay and speculation, as there is no information about what the Clans will be in MWO. As demonstrated by the liberties the Devs have taken with ECM and normal LRMs, they do not believe in translating material from the original system faithfully into the game, so all of this is just wishfull thinking at this point.

If they decide Clan LRMs are 1.5 times heavier, with two more crit spaces, no ability to Indirectly Fire at a target and do half the damage of the Inner Sphere models, then that is what the Clan LRMs will be in MWO, and all of this is null and void. Also, they could just as easily use the same weapons as are in the game now, and -that- would be the Clans in MWO. No one could tell them otherwise, because MWO doesn't have to hold to what Battletech has said is so. They'll do what they very well please.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 11 February 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[Aym]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Only thing that prevents LRM boats from dominating the battefield right now is OP ECM. If ECM is getting a nerf it rightfully deserves we won't need Clan LRMs to have nightmare. Regular LRMs will be nightmare enough. Unless more balancing is gonna be done we'll be back to all-LRM teams especially as its really easy for new or 'not-so-skilled' players to be effective in those kind of mechs.

Trolololol? OR just only run in pugs? But even then the only thing preventing LRM boats from dominating is OP Premades isn't it? I'm very confused.

[Wales Grey]

Grigor Samsa, on 07 February 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Stalker-5M
Standard structure
310 XL engine, 2 DHS in engine
16 tons standard armor

LA: Clan LRM20, 1 x DHS
RA: Clan LRM 20, 1 x DHS
LT: 2 x Clan LRM 20
RT: Clan LRM 20, 1 x DHS
CT: TAG

12 tons ammo
15 DHS total

180 damage alpha strike, no minimum range, all homing missiles. 37% cooling efficiency, so your max sustained DPS would be 14.023

Largest engine, so top speed is 65kph (with Speed Tweak). This thing would eat anything at any range. At point blank, it's effectively a SRM-72 launcher.

Not that anything is necessarily going to be bad, mind you. Just saying, when Clan tech comes out and people get steamrolled by Clan weapons, you saw this build here first.

ECM. Your Stalker is now even more useless, as they are all:

• Slow moving (yes, even with a massive engine and speed tweak)
  
• Slow turning, both directionally and torsorectionally

Yes, you could theoretically use your CLRMs as a shotgun, but that's really not all that impressive, especially because one of your launchers is shooting out a NARC tube. Plus, any true Battletech fan knows that the CLRM-15 is more efficient than the CLRM-20 in missiles/size ratio, leaving you enough room for other scarier clantech weapons, like ER-ML and ER-LL.

[UnseenFury]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Only thing that prevents LRM boats from dominating the battefield right now is OP ECM. If ECM is getting a nerf it rightfully deserves we won't need Clan LRMs to have nightmare. Regular LRMs will be nightmare enough. Unless more balancing is gonna be done we'll be back to all-LRM teams especially as its really easy for new or 'not-so-skilled' players to be effective in those kind of mechs.

Learn to move around the map and take cover.

All the rockets shot at me are being wasted hitting an obstacle.

Even when you got caught in the open, you still have time to take cover, LRM damage is not high. Unless of course you are playing slow аss assaults.